Did you guys see the new Cat Catalyst?

[earthling]

I can’t confirm cause I can’t find the article. I’ve read everything I could find on new chassis and one of the things said contract was extended to 2025 with Yamaha. Now they didn’t say if 998 would be in new chassis but I would think they would keep procross around for a bit for this engine and certain other models.

I think they said the 800 isn't coming until 2024, and even if they started the process of integrating the 998 in parallel today, they would need a contract that ran through at least the end of warranty on all sled variants. To me, this implies that the contract would need to be longer than 2025.

 

[stevewithOCD]

I like the way DR. KNAPP looked at this, but I have some other observations on this.
I don't think Cat's strategy of putting this out in fall was a great idea.
It's too late for 2023 & too early for 2024.
If this sled is sooo "radical" like they advertise, I won't know how "radical" it is until 2024.
I don't want a first year sled so 2025 would be earliest for me & IF they add a 4-stroke it will be 2026 so that sled gets a year under it's belt.

They claim they made it lighter............how much?
2 pounds?
20?
31.465?

They say it's the most responsive 600 out there.
Did they change the motor cuz it wasn't before.
They did say they have bigger motor(S) coming.

The GOOD news is they put something new out there so that should dispel the rumors that they are leaving the biz.
I always felt the ProCross chassis was very good & just needed some improvements.
The front end has new spindles & some refined geometry which is all I think it needed.
The rear end is tweaked a bit, but I believe it needs a whole new revamp there. Just my opinion.

The REALLY good news is they finally have some bags that lock on without straps.
MY personal BIGGEST concern is, DID THEY FIX the SMALL ISSUES?
They say they simplified everything & built it to last.
They don't say how so they'll have to prove it to me.

The belt drive won't be put on a 4-Stroke so it means nothing to me.
DON'T FORGET: We are on a 4-STROKE FORUM right now so most of us are trying to figure out how this may affect us 4-Strokers IF there will even be one.

YAMAHA doesn't talk to us or tell us anything so we have to look at Cat then try to EXTRAPULATE our future on Yamaha's

I think KNAPP is right: I should buy a SIDEWINDER & keep it for the future cuz we may never see anything like it again

 

[Jefro]

I like the way DR. KNAPP looked at this, but I have some other observations on this.
I don't think Cat's strategy of putting this out in fall was a great idea.
It's too late for 2023 & too early for 2024.
If this sled is sooo "radical" like they advertise, I won't know how "radical" it is until 2024.
I don't want a first year sled so 2025 would be earliest for me & IF they add a 4-stroke it will be 2026 so that sled gets a year under it's belt.

They claim they made it lighter............how much?
2 pounds?
20?
31.465?

They say it's the most responsive 600 out there.
Did they change the motor cuz it wasn't before.
They did say they have bigger motor(S) coming.

The GOOD news is they put something new out there so that should dispel the rumors that they are leaving the biz.
I always felt the ProCross chassis was very good & just needed some improvements.
The front end has new spindles & some refined geometry which is all I think it needed.
The rear end is tweaked a bit, but I believe it needs a whole new revamp there. Just my opinion.

The REALLY good news is they finally have some bags that lock on without straps.
MY personal BIGGEST concern is, DID THEY FIX the SMALL ISSUES?
They say they simplified everything & built it to last.
They don't say how so they'll have to prove it to me.

The belt drive won't be put on a 4-Stroke so it means nothing to me.
DON'T FORGET: We are on a 4-STROKE FORUM right now so most of us are trying to figure out how this may affect us 4-Strokers IF there will even be one.

YAMAHA doesn't talk to us or tell us anything so we have to look at Cat then try to EXTRAPULATE our future on Yamaha's

I think KNAPP is right: I should buy a SIDEWINDER & keep it for the future cuz we may never see anything like it again

I read someone asked about weight and all the engineer would tell him was a 10% reduction.

 

[number1kyster]

I read someone asked about weight and all the engineer would tell him was a 10% reduction.

10% is pretty significant.

It would be cool if they figured out a way to improve driveline efficiency, so that a 600 ran with 800s, and 800s were king. That would be about the only way they could one up Doo and Poo in the 2 stroke segment.

 

[earthling]

Where the weight is is far more important than the absolute reduction. Centralizing mass underneath the pilot will make the sled more agile and allow the suspension to work more efficiently. (the suspension feels that weight as well). I hope they put as much effort into making sure the snowmobile is balanced left to right. Its great to see the focus on serviceability, at least at the level of the panels, lets hope that extends deeper into the engine compartment.

If they had put it out sooner, there was no guarantee that they could have had the tooling in place and they may have cannibalized current sales. Any later is a disservice to themselves as they need to ride the hype train until they get the sled out. Unveiling the sled now while not the perfect answer, was the right thing to do. The massive crowds at haydays will give them confidence at the corporate level that they are on the right track and the market is supportive.

What would be considered 'too soon' at this point is the details of what's new that everyone is asking about. Any specific details released would only give the competition more insight into how to market against cat while at the same time giving them some insights into what improvements they themselves would have to make. I expect that these details will be rolled out right up to snow check, securing business for the actual release of the new model.

 

[jonlafon1]

Where the weight is is far more important than the absolute reduction. Centralizing mass underneath the pilot will make the sled more agile and allow the suspension to work more efficiently. (the suspension feels that weight as well)

Cat has always been really good at this IMO.. That's why the sleds of the past have handled so well.. Funny as they have typically been heavier then other brands but have always had the best front end in the business/ and a well planted/predictable sled. Very good point here earthling..

 

[kinger]

Where the weight is is far more important than the absolute reduction. Centralizing mass underneath the pilot will make the sled more agile and allow the suspension to work more efficiently. (the suspension feels that weight as well). I hope they put as much effort into making sure the snowmobile is balanced left to right. Its great to see the focus on serviceability, at least at the level of the panels, lets hope that extends deeper into the engine compartment.

If they had put it out sooner, there was no guarantee that they could have had the tooling in place and they may have cannibalized current sales. Any later is a disservice to themselves as they need to ride the hype train until they get the sled out. Unveiling the sled now while not the perfect answer, was the right thing to do. The massive crowds at haydays will give them confidence at the corporate level that they are on the right track and the market is supportive.

What would be considered 'too soon' at this point is the details of what's new that everyone is asking about. Any specific details released would only give the competition more insight into how to market against cat while at the same time giving them some insights into what improvements they themselves would have to make. I expect that these details will be rolled out right up to snow check, securing business for the actual release of the new model.

My BTX 153 is 43/57 F/R sitting on its own, moves to 42/58 while sitting on sled (220lb rider). Interesting part is it goes to 46/54 while standing. Cat knows what they are doing regarding centralizing mass.

 

[Doc Harley]

I don't think Cat's strategy of putting this out in fall was a great idea.
It's too late for 2023 & too early for 2024.

Probably still working out the kinks. I kinda wish Skidoo would consider doing the same.
Skidoo is the king of false advertising & sweeping things under the rug.

 

[earthling]

My BTX 153 is 43/57 F/R sitting on its own, moves to 42/58 while sitting on sled (220lb rider). Interesting part is it goes to 46/54 while standing. Cat knows what they are doing regarding centralizing mass.

I completely agree that Cat knows what they are doing but your example is more about balance of forces on the suspension. You could for instance hang weight off the sled at the very front and very rear and still come out with the numbers you mention. Centralizing mass means taking whatever weight there is and pulling it closer to the the targeted center of rotation. They are independent (but related) goals which when done properly can result in a marked improvement in handling. IOW, you can for instance do one or the other independently. An example of mass centralization is the battery sitting so far out back on the current models where its mass has a larger than intuitive influence on handling, if it is brought closer in, it will make the sled easier to rotate. That centralization however cannot be at the expense of balance. An example of that would be to put the battery and exhaust in the same spot and side where both are close to the center of rotation but the resulting weight distribution (balance) would be terrible. Of course we then turn around and strap a bunch of 'stuff' to the tunnel, nullifying much of the positive effect

Any improvement in centralization of mass means that the rider will have more influence over the sleds handling. A well balanced sled (the winder is) will handle well, centralizing its mass further will make it handle better. Handling on a snowmobile is a very subjective thing as we know everyone has a different idea of what constitutes 'good'. Some guys like uncoupled skids, etc.. I for one think the sidewinder has it more right than wrong in terms of handling, but then 'handling' doesn't always meet the fun criteria many seek. I look forward to more details around what has been done on the skid but just moving weight more towards that center of rotation means the skid has to work less and more focus can be put on improving its characteristics.

I still have not wrapped my head around how a rear suspension works in a snowmobile, I don't mean physically, I understand the motion of the skid and how it works but I don't have a way to think about how forces translate through the skid and associated suspension throughout its range of motion much less what the influence is of the track and its associated (interrupted) centripetal forces it generates as it rotates around the skid. Motorcycles by comparison, are far more straightforward.

 

[kinger]

I completely agree that Cat knows what they are doing but your example is more about balance of forces on the suspension. You could for instance hang weight off the sled at the very front and very rear and still come out with the numbers you mention. Centralizing mass means taking whatever weight there is and pulling it closer to the the targeted center of rotation. They are independent (but related) goals which when done properly can result in a marked improvement in handling. IOW, you can for instance do one or the other independently. An example of mass centralization is the battery sitting so far out back on the current models where its mass has a larger than intuitive influence on handling, if it is brought closer in, it will make the sled easier to rotate. That centralization however cannot be at the expense of balance. An example of that would be to put the battery and exhaust in the same spot and side where both are close to the center of rotation but the resulting weight distribution (balance) would be terrible. Of course we then turn around and strap a bunch of 'stuff' to the tunnel, nullifying much of the positive effect

Any improvement in centralization of mass means that the rider will have more influence over the sleds handling. A well balanced sled (the winder is) will handle well, centralizing its mass further will make it handle better. Handling on a snowmobile is a very subjective thing as we know everyone has a different idea of what constitutes 'good'. Some guys like uncoupled skids, etc.. I for one think the sidewinder has it more right than wrong in terms of handling, but then 'handling' doesn't always meet the fun criteria many seek. I look forward to more details around what has been done on the skid but just moving weight more towards that center of rotation means the skid has to work less and more focus can be put on improving its characteristics.

I still have not wrapped my head around how a rear suspension works in a snowmobile, I don't mean physically, I understand the motion of the skid and how it works but I don't have a way to think about how forces translate through the skid and associated suspension throughout its range of motion much less what the influence is of the track and its associated (interrupted) centripetal forces it generates as it rotates around the skid. Motorcycles by comparison, are far more straightforward.

You talk in a lot of theory but I like practical knowledge. Practically there is nothing they can do around mass centralization that any novice rider will notice, it's all marketing now. When you look at old iron, the theory worked in the ski doo rev, moving mass that was inches or FEET away from the center, now they can vary a few percentage points but no one will notice. We are into the "personal preference" realm you mentioned. The only way to make sleds more lightweight feeling is to make them lighter. We are in the diminishing returns area on the mass centralization department.

Rear skids are tough, really want to boggle your mind...my ZX2 as NO front arm shocks yet holds 330 lbs of weight when I sit on it. The rear arm is on a CAM shaft that rotates as the skid goes over bumps. Controlling the CAM rotation gives you more or less transfer. Still can't wrap my brain around that skid either. I prefer uncoupled on my BTX. I just like a more playful sled now. We aren't carving corners at mach 1 anymore like we were in our 20's LOL

 

[earthling]

You talk in a lot of theory but I like practical knowledge. Practically there is nothing they can do around mass centralization that any novice rider will notice, it's all marketing now. When you look at old iron, the theory worked in the ski doo rev, moving mass that was inches or FEET away from the center, now they can vary a few percentage points but no one will notice. We are into the "personal preference" realm you mentioned. The only way to make sleds more lightweight feeling is to make them lighter. We are in the diminishing returns area on the mass centralization department.

Rear skids are tough, really want to boggle your mind...my ZX2 as NO front arm shocks yet holds 330 lbs of weight when I sit on it. The rear arm is on a CAM shaft that rotates as the skid goes over bumps. Controlling the CAM rotation gives you more or less transfer. Still can't wrap my brain around that skid either. I prefer uncoupled on my BTX. I just like a more playful sled now. We aren't carving corners at mach 1 anymore like we were in our 20's LOL

Totally agree. Just pointing out what their goals are. With all brands we are at the point of minor updates for major marketing leverage. Look at the Matryx vs Axis, basically the same thing with very minor refinements but Polaris pushed it as hard as they could. For Skidoo the rmotionx is a refinement of the r-motion, etc.. The 'theory' has very pragmatic results in the real world but as you say, most people won't notice it.. but.. that really isn't nearly as important as the effort to generate some excitement in the brand.

BTW, I talk in theory primarily because as I look out the window all I see are green leaves. And theory, is what leads to more major breakthroughs and hopefully pragmatic results.

 

[icon]

I can’t confirm cause I can’t find the article. I’ve read everything I could find on new chassis and one of the things said contract was extended to 2025 with Yamaha. Now they didn’t say if 998 would be in new chassis but I would think they would keep procross around for a bit for this engine and certain other models.

Read and article in Snowtech today on the Polaris S4. Unconfirmed reports of Yamaha engines being fitted into Polaris prototype sleds.They speculated on " perhaps Yamaha has been courting Polaris to build sleds for them in exchange for the use of their engines"

Maybe this is old news but it was the first I had heard of it.

 

[fxnytrortxkid]

Read and article in Snowtech today on the Polaris S4. Unconfirmed reports of Yamaha engines being fitted into Polaris prototype sleds.They speculated on " perhaps Yamaha has been courting Polaris to build sleds for them in exchange for the use of their engines"

Maybe this is old news but it was the first I had heard of it.

Mr sled had heard this and posted on it cpl months back. That could have lots of potential… but rather see their own thing at this point not rebadging of an entire line up

 

[pdiddy]

Back in the 70's with the engine in your lap, you couldn't get more mass centralized than that. Sled handling didn't improve until the engine was moved forward over the skis. Sleds were lighter then too. Just an observation.

 

[cannondale27]

Where the Cat/Yamaha was lacking is the bodywork and rear skid vs Polaris and Doo. More so the bodywork than the skid. My daughter said it best about riding the ProCross. Said it felt like a cow vs the others and even vs the Phazer. When your knees are Jammed into the bodywork it limits movement. A inch matters. They got it right from what I could see in the new one. The skid shown in the XC Sled at Haydays is basically the same as has been in all the XC Sleds and most of the RR's for years. It works darn good but its a race sled. If you look at the size of the shocks on the Doo and Polaris it tells you what is actually needed for a broader range of comfort. This is splitting hairs though. The Cat skid works pretty darn well. The center shock is way overworked though. Put a Yamaha 4st in it and keep the same ergos and I would love to own one!