Handlebar Warmer problem solved!

[SLEDSTART]

Still have a skid, shafts, track, hood, and lots more to do before the weekend!
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=64698

Holy $%!& Batman! That's quite a project! I'm surprised that you find time to ride at all... I thought I did a lot when I replaced my slides and wheels.

Lol Thanks!
Did u check out the link?

Assuming I am able to ride this weekend, will be trail testing the cap mod again.
Last time it wasn't very cold.
It did make a big difference at idle.
Will report back my experience.

After I trail test the cap mod again, I will test the relay mod in this link.

The cap mod is the simplest fix I have seen that still uses the existing controls.
If it works out well, the relay mod may be even better using the existing controls.

Whatever I come up with, I want it to be fast, easy for people to do (low skill level required), work well, Definitely use the existing controls, and not cost a friggin mint!

The warmers are the single biggest complaint on these sleds and shouldn't be.
You shouldn't have to spend hundreds trying to fix it!
Overall, they are amazingly dependable machines and shouldn't have the hassle of cold hands.

Give me a couple weeks and I will get it tested.
(Maybe sooner, if possible)
Will try to make a unit that is plug and play.
10 minute install kind of thing.

PS Snowdog & Blubyou(think that's right!) are making the remote starts and have been helpful in finding factory connectors to make it Plug and Play, if I can get the cost down and it works well, I will make a bunch for you guys.

rockmeister....Tell me exactly what connectors and if the qty is enough I may be able to get them even cheaper than the site I sent you in the PM...

 

[Kevin Garceau]

Ya know what Snowdog......you're a pretty damn good guy.

I sure hope we can meet up some time. I will definitely buy you the adult beverage of your choice!

If ya ever get up near the Dells with the family make sure to look me up. I'm not that far from there.

Or if you wanna get up this way to ride.

 

[Bradford]

I could check with the guys making the PCB for the remote start I'm working on.

Best to see if the concept even works first...

BTW, I would like to know more about the guys making your board. I have industrial projects that they might be able to help me with. Can you PM me with their info?

 

[SLEDSTART]

Ya know what Snowdog......you're a pretty damn good guy.

I sure hope we can meet up some time. I will definitely buy you the adult beverage of your choice!

If ya ever get up near the Dells with the family make sure to look me up. I'm not that far from there.

Or if you wanna get up this way to ride.

Thanks Kevin...I'm sure we'll hook up one day somewhere. I know there is a northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin ride that guys have been chatting about trying to get something going. Maybe there?

 

[SLEDSTART]

I could check with the guys making the PCB for the remote start I'm working on.

Best to see if the concept even works first...

BTW, I would like to know more about the guys making your board. I have industrial projects that they might be able to help me with. Can you PM me with their info?

PM sent...

 

[Bradford]

mr rxl started this thread with the concept of powering the heaters with a full time power source which makes a lot of sense to me.

I ran two simple tests. I measured how much my hand warmers heated up in 5 minutes at idle with a constant 12V to the heaters and without (stock). With the stock setup, the heaters run at 30% regardless of the setting. The air temperature was 58F:

Test 1: Stock, 5 minute test @ 1100 RPM:
Start @ 58F
End @ 82F

Test 2: Constant 12V (14 V actually), 5 minute test @ 1100 RPM:
Start @ 58F
End @ 138F

Brad

 

[kinger]

Brad anyway you could throw the 1000MF capacitor in there and do the same test? Be AWESOME to know if it gets you close and its cheap! $2!

 

[actionjack]

Anyone else get the feeling that TY members have invested more time in the Apex handwarmer engineering than Yamaha did?

Seems so simple, I am not an EE (obviously) but can there be any other reason to skim (use PWM) on the warmers instead of full power, than trying to skimp on the stator? For what? weight, cost,? We all know they don't equal previous model year Yamaha warmers, not to mention other brands (XPs excluded) But what the hell? They've had three model year owners input, countless hours of brainstorming and jack-#*$&@ engineering. It can't be so hard to figure out at this point.

 

[SLEDSTART]

I say Yamaha give a brand new 2010 sled to the one who has the best fix...

Come on Yamaha...you KNOW your reading this.

 

[Rockmeister]

Anyone else get the feeling that TY members have invested more time in the Apex handwarmer engineering than Yamaha did?

Seems so simple, I am not an EE (obviously) but can there be any other reason to skim (use PWM) on the warmers instead of full power, than trying to skimp on the stator? For what? weight, cost,? We all know they don't equal previous model year Yamaha warmers, not to mention other brands (XPs excluded) But what the hell? They've had three model year owners input, countless hours of brainstorming and jack-#*$&@ engineering. It can't be so hard to figure out at this point.

Hahhahhahha! I love it!

The PWM is a great way to control the power to the bars, it is VERY efficient!
The problem is in the programming of the ECU, they allow very little power to the bars below 4500 or so RPMs! :exc:

Funny part is, publicly Yamaha says they have never had a complaint about the bars, other than the '06 Nytro bar update, and that was to run the heaters on the curved part of the bar.
This is what we have, just trying to figure an easy way to solve it, and go on.



Bradford: Yes, please check it with the cap mod!
I don't have temperature equipment, and my sled is kinda in parts right now...

 

[Bradford]

Anyone else get the feeling that TY members have invested more time in the Apex handwarmer engineering than Yamaha did?

Seems so simple, I am not an EE (obviously) but can there be any other reason to skim (use PWM) on the warmers instead of full power, than trying to skimp on the stator? For what? weight, cost,? We all know they don't equal previous model year Yamaha warmers, not to mention other brands (XPs excluded) But what the hell? They've had three model year owners input, countless hours of brainstorming and jack-#*$&@ engineering. It can't be so hard to figure out at this point.

Agreed. In fact, if my sled was an 09, I'd be all over customer service. I guess I've excepted the fact that I'm on my own and I don't mind tinkering to make the heaters work better.

I have the same question about why the engineers chose to limit power to the heaters at idle and why the heaters turn off when you put the brakes on (in face, it appears that the 12V accessory power gets interrupted too). These guys are no dummys and I can only assume that there's a very good reason why they programmed the ECU this way but people on this site are reporting that there's no ill effects by doing these mods (even the one where the 06 bars are wired in parallel which apparently draws 12 amps!). If it was an issue with not enough amperage output at idle, guys running high wattage headlights would be having all kinds of problems. Maybe we need to ask a more direct question to customer service....

Brad anyway you could throw the 1000MF capacitor in there and do the same test? Be AWESOME to know if it gets you close and its cheap! $2!

Bradford: Yes, please check it with the cap mod!

Great idea! I'll try to do it tonight to compare the results

Brad

 

[actionjack]

Maybe they're stuck with a bunch of ECUs for which they can't or are unwilling to change to programing for the warmers. We know that modifications are working so the PWM just needs some tweaking, and that would make it seem that the extra power required exists in the current design. Its just that someone value engineered the ECU programming too far.

Since they offered us 06 buyers new bar upgrades it is not possible for them to truthfully say they are not aware of a problem. Thats just spin.

I do not believe that the 12v accy plug shuts off under braking or at idle since I've ridden most of my miles with my GPS plugged in to it and it alerts me when the power is interrupted - never happened at idle or braking. Happened when the key is turned off.

 

[RacerDave]

I've been thinkin about this problem all morning and came up with another possible (at least partial) solution. What do you guys think about glueing a piece of fiberglass cloth around the bar underneath the heater element or slip-on grips? Most header wraps are fiberglass to keep heat inside the headers and out of the engine bay. So I was thinking; why wouldn't it keep heat from sinking into the steel bars?

This is essentially what MrSled is doing to his sled, except he is using a cork (I believe) insulator from Doo (I think that is what he wrote). He said that Nelsons in Michigan has been doing this for several years with very good results. I've gotta give Nelsons a call Monday to get the finer details. Evidently Doo owns the patent for this.

Cat, did you make that call to Nelsons?

 

[RacerDave]

These might be a workable solution for the really cold days.
http://www.aerostich.com/catalog/US/Aer ... 16731.html

At 1.6 amp draw you could run them from the aux point if you wire on a plug in. I'd seen these before in bike catalogs but never thought much about them till a poster on another sight brought them up.

I received these yesterday. The oem grips are too small in diammeter for these to wrap around secure well with the velcro. The vecro only catchs by about a 1/4 inch. Pretty sure they will go back.

 

[mr rxl]

I was worndering why Yamaha would shut off the warmers under certain rpms and when the brake light is on. The accessory plug has a 3 amp fuse on it and it has power all the time.
With my bar warmers connected to the accessory circut, it is drawing 3.4 amps and does not blow the fuse.

If Yamaha was concerned about excessive draw, they wouldn't have let the accessory plug be powered all the time. (and put a 3 amp fuse there)
I now have over 100 miles on my set up and it works perfect. No codes and warm hands.

I would be concerned about putting a capacitor on the output of the ECM in fear of feedback.

I am still looking for the 3 plug connectors like the ones on the end of the bar warmers. If I could find them I would be able to build a very simple plug and play solution.