welterracer
TY 4 Stroke God
I should have said not worth it to me. If i had 180hp i wouldnt need an extra 20hp, It would be fast enough...
Plus i only get 2000miles on my sled a year anyhow and an extra $4000 isnt in my wallet!
Plus i only get 2000miles on my sled a year anyhow and an extra $4000 isnt in my wallet!
LICKETY SPLIT
Extreme
INTERCOOLERS
Do all turbo systems have new air boxes supplied with them?It looks like they do and if so how much would it cost to add a intercooler to the new air box?It doesn't look like a very expensive item to add on to me,How much extra could it cost?see ya
Do all turbo systems have new air boxes supplied with them?It looks like they do and if so how much would it cost to add a intercooler to the new air box?It doesn't look like a very expensive item to add on to me,How much extra could it cost?see ya
Buckeye
Lifetime Member
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2003
- Messages
- 1,430
- Location
- Lakes Region, NH
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2018 Sidewinder LE XTX 137" 50th Aniversary
Airbox?
There is no air box with the intercooler, just a large intake filter. I agree that it seems like alot for the intercooler. I think people assume that it is $1000 based on Bender's prices from last year. I think his kit differences were more than just the intercooler for the $1000.
There is no air box with the intercooler, just a large intake filter. I agree that it seems like alot for the intercooler. I think people assume that it is $1000 based on Bender's prices from last year. I think his kit differences were more than just the intercooler for the $1000.
ExTrEeMF7
Expert
now MZX900 AND JTSSRX I HOPE THIS IS NOT YOU TOO THIS WINTER
I DONT FEEL THE LOVE HERE
MAN
I DONT FEEL THE LOVE HERE
MAN
A good high flowing intercooler starts in the neighborhood of $500. Yes Benders kit has more than that for the stage 2, more turbo, adjustable boost are part of the kit also.
Buckeye
Lifetime Member
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2003
- Messages
- 1,430
- Location
- Lakes Region, NH
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2018 Sidewinder LE XTX 137" 50th Aniversary
Kit price
That's what I thought and to me the Intercooler is well worth the $500. Anything that helps to keep the motor more reliable in such a short season is an added bonus.
That's what I thought and to me the Intercooler is well worth the $500. Anything that helps to keep the motor more reliable in such a short season is an added bonus.
buckeye you bought the right kit!!!!!
ExTrEeMF7
Expert
i cant waite to see your kits in -30 or -40 when you have a cooler on it,
see the ice build up on it , nobody has one that has been tested yet in -30
well cant waite too see you guys on a ty ride, see who turbo is better then who's.
i my self is buying one from jason , mr turbo has been making turbos for a long time.
see bender only made one last year ,what other turbo has he made ....
who is this mc xpress never hurd of them not even for mxz670
so realy the best we will see this winter on the lake and hope its -30 .
so we can see if your cooler will be good or not i dont see how the cooler is any good at -20 -30.
when the turbo that jason is making will be just as good if not better.
anyways this is my 2 cents.
all i have to say is.
we will see !!!! and i hope all you guys that yap about coolers can show up to prove your self .
if you cant make it then shut the hell up .....
so the chalange is set !!!
why cause i just chalanged you guys !!!!
what for?
cause i want to see who out of all you guys is right ....
why?
to see if 99% of know what the hell your talking about !!!
yes
so put up or pls shut the hell up ...
see you guys that bought big turbos at 4500$ are pist now cause a guy like jason has made one for 3000$ and you guys feel raped i dont blaim you sombody has to suport others ..
well just because jason made one and is doing well you guys feel the need to blast him
well not hes fault you did not think of it befor him or smart enoff to build one your self .
so why not just stop and waite to see if hes is good or even yet if your bender or mc express is any better , so leave it alone and maby go have sex or somthing let some of that stress out , or if you dont have a wife or girl , go jerk off .... might do you good.
end of story !
oh go ahead and bash me i have big shoulders ..
you know i could care less i can turn this puter off not hard at all ..
:wink:
love yeah
xtreem
see the ice build up on it , nobody has one that has been tested yet in -30
well cant waite too see you guys on a ty ride, see who turbo is better then who's.
i my self is buying one from jason , mr turbo has been making turbos for a long time.
see bender only made one last year ,what other turbo has he made ....
who is this mc xpress never hurd of them not even for mxz670
so realy the best we will see this winter on the lake and hope its -30 .
so we can see if your cooler will be good or not i dont see how the cooler is any good at -20 -30.
when the turbo that jason is making will be just as good if not better.
anyways this is my 2 cents.
all i have to say is.
we will see !!!! and i hope all you guys that yap about coolers can show up to prove your self .
if you cant make it then shut the hell up .....
so the chalange is set !!!
why cause i just chalanged you guys !!!!
what for?
cause i want to see who out of all you guys is right ....
why?
to see if 99% of know what the hell your talking about !!!
yes
so put up or pls shut the hell up ...
see you guys that bought big turbos at 4500$ are pist now cause a guy like jason has made one for 3000$ and you guys feel raped i dont blaim you sombody has to suport others ..
well just because jason made one and is doing well you guys feel the need to blast him
well not hes fault you did not think of it befor him or smart enoff to build one your self .
so why not just stop and waite to see if hes is good or even yet if your bender or mc express is any better , so leave it alone and maby go have sex or somthing let some of that stress out , or if you dont have a wife or girl , go jerk off .... might do you good.
end of story !
oh go ahead and bash me i have big shoulders ..
you know i could care less i can turn this puter off not hard at all ..
:wink:
love yeah
xtreem
Silverbullet
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Piston driven aircraft have been running turbos and intercoolers for years at temps of around -70 F without any problems. And can a 4 stroke engine make big power safely without a intercooler, Absolutly :!: BUT anytime you compress air you get heat and we all know that if we give our sleds plenty of cold fresh air they run better. If you can cool the charge temp that you feed into your engine all the better. You reduce piston and combustion temps which make the engine less prone to detonation and give you increased engine life (Top rings and all 12 exhaust valves will thank you!!) So pick your poison. Any increase in HP WILL add wear and tear to your engine. And regardless if you have a cooler or not you are going to shorten your engine life :!:
Snow Fever
Expert
Hey I have a question? Now that I have my set up running (sort of) I have found that the slides are not opening because I have NO vacum to pull them up. The stock air box has enough restriction to cause enough vacum to over come the springs in the slides and if you remove the stock air box it does the same thing that I am experiencing now (crapping out around 6500- 7000rpm slides are not opening and it's going lean) Here is my question what did Bender or MC do to over come this problem? My answer is the long charge tube to the Turbo combined with the intercooler equals restriction which equals vacum which makes the slides open. Or did they change the stock springs in the slides as well. I understand they run the stock springs. So if this theory is correct, when I do get my springs dialed in will it be just that much more efficient in overall performance or does it make NO difference? I think it will be an overall performance increase (could be wrong) flowing air more efficiently should be better. Not saying more H.P. per pound of boost (although it might be the case) but I think it will have way better throttle response and even though I have NO intercooler with little to NO restriction in air flow that in itself should help keep the compressed air charge cooler by not having to force it through a restriction. Then again get it wrong on the slide springs and you could have a melt down. Damn I hate it when there is a draw back. Just my theory anyone have any thoughts about this. JTSSRX is that a pumper carb and does it have means for carb heat?
Look athttp://www.northeastturbos.com ,installation,
at the new manualRX1 secondpart.
It might give you some ideas about different airhose connections. :idea:
at the new manualRX1 secondpart.
It might give you some ideas about different airhose connections. :idea:
Snow Fever
Expert
Hooper thanks for the link. I have this already but don't really get it? Did they change the springs on your kit or did the just use these fitting to minipulize the air flow (smaller orfice) I think it can be done with springs just going to be some trial and error. That "T" fitting that hooks between the carbs is that a restrictor? Seems pretty elabarate for just a "T" fitting OH well I'll try see what I come up with on the spring theory.
I have been following all the turbo discussions over the last few months with a great deal of interest..especially with respect to the use of intercoolers. I have been doing some more reading and made a few phone calls to gather the following information. I have had some experience with turbos ..had a 97 VMAX 4 with an aerocharger.. several vehicles in the 70-80's with them and have just completed installing a Bender stage 2 kit on my RX1..
I called Terry Paine at Benders to see if he had any data from dyno and track testing on his turbo set up for the RX1. I was interested in any temperature readings on intake air, with and without the turbo /intercooler system.
Here is the data he gave me, which by the way I have no reason to not take at face value.
RESULTS OF DYNO TESTING RX1.
*** OUTSIDE AIR TEMP 51 F
*** 8.5 # BOOST
*** OUTLET TEMP OF AIR AT TURBO 189 F
*** TEMP OF AIR ENTERING CARBS AFTER INTERCOOLER 60 F
*** TEMP OF AIR ENTERING CARBS ON STOCK RX1 91 F
This appears to confirm the degree to which an intercooler will reduce the air entering the carbs. Remember the Univeral Gas Laws...
T [temp] is directly proportional P [pressure]
As any gas is compressed the tempeature increases by the same factor.
So what does it gain to reduce the temp of the air entering the carbs? First, it dramatically increase the volumetric efficiency [ the amount of air/fuel that can be forced into the cylinder per stroke].. Secondly, by reducing the temp of the incoming air, you reduce [ not eliminate] the chance of detonation.
To round off the numbers..190 f air direct from the turbo will not be as volumetrically efficient nor will be as safe from detonation as the 60 F air coming from an intercooler.
Most text books on internal combustion engines and turbos [ as do some of the experts I have talked to] agree on this rule of thumb.
FOR EVERY 11 DEGREES OF TEMP DROP AT THE CARB THE HORSEPOWER IS INCREASED BY 1%..
So using our numbers from above of 189 F @ turbo oulet, 60 F at carb inlet AFTER intercooler, we have a difference of 129 F . Divide 129 by 11 and you get 11.72%. This means that the the 200 hp range...with identical setups we should see a power increase of appx 23.5 HP..
The question was asked..is this power increase worth $500 or $1000..I guess thats up to the individual, but how many of you fellows know people who have spent $1000 plus for pipes reeds and clutching to gain an ADVERTISED 22-28 HP.
The final point I would like to make is about intercoolers on bikes VS snowmobiles. It is my understanding that an R1 street bike with a turbo and no intercooler will crank close to 190MPH.. Dont know many guys riding that way on the street..A street bike only runs near redline till the next shift point..while a snow mobile is usually running at or near peak rpm most of the time.. when you "pull the trigger" you want to see that tach at or near 10250 and most of us like to hold it there ]for a while]..On a street bike. the RPM's only reach redline prior to shift points So trying to compare a turbo on a street bike to a turbo on a snowmobile is like "apples and pumpkins". One other consideration on a street bike is a mounting location for a properly sized intercooler..it can be tough mounting one of these.
One final point..In one post the use of water cooling for the turbo was discussed.. I thought about this for a while and then it hit me. why wwould you want ot use 180 F-190F coolant to cool the turbo.. I guess in exteme case where the turbo is running at 100% or more of its rating you would want to cool the shaft bearing in the turbo, but using coolant near the temp of the out turbo air doesnt make sense to me.. I could be wrong..so would like to hear anyones thoughts on this.
I am not trying to "rain on anyone's parade", but after reading all this stuff for the last few months, I had to offer my observations and input.
I hope it hasn't been to boring.
I will be looking forward to anyones's input of what I have said.
Yamadoc Doc Sheller..UP of Michigan near Munising
I called Terry Paine at Benders to see if he had any data from dyno and track testing on his turbo set up for the RX1. I was interested in any temperature readings on intake air, with and without the turbo /intercooler system.
Here is the data he gave me, which by the way I have no reason to not take at face value.
RESULTS OF DYNO TESTING RX1.
*** OUTSIDE AIR TEMP 51 F
*** 8.5 # BOOST
*** OUTLET TEMP OF AIR AT TURBO 189 F
*** TEMP OF AIR ENTERING CARBS AFTER INTERCOOLER 60 F
*** TEMP OF AIR ENTERING CARBS ON STOCK RX1 91 F
This appears to confirm the degree to which an intercooler will reduce the air entering the carbs. Remember the Univeral Gas Laws...
T [temp] is directly proportional P [pressure]
As any gas is compressed the tempeature increases by the same factor.
So what does it gain to reduce the temp of the air entering the carbs? First, it dramatically increase the volumetric efficiency [ the amount of air/fuel that can be forced into the cylinder per stroke].. Secondly, by reducing the temp of the incoming air, you reduce [ not eliminate] the chance of detonation.
To round off the numbers..190 f air direct from the turbo will not be as volumetrically efficient nor will be as safe from detonation as the 60 F air coming from an intercooler.
Most text books on internal combustion engines and turbos [ as do some of the experts I have talked to] agree on this rule of thumb.
FOR EVERY 11 DEGREES OF TEMP DROP AT THE CARB THE HORSEPOWER IS INCREASED BY 1%..
So using our numbers from above of 189 F @ turbo oulet, 60 F at carb inlet AFTER intercooler, we have a difference of 129 F . Divide 129 by 11 and you get 11.72%. This means that the the 200 hp range...with identical setups we should see a power increase of appx 23.5 HP..
The question was asked..is this power increase worth $500 or $1000..I guess thats up to the individual, but how many of you fellows know people who have spent $1000 plus for pipes reeds and clutching to gain an ADVERTISED 22-28 HP.
The final point I would like to make is about intercoolers on bikes VS snowmobiles. It is my understanding that an R1 street bike with a turbo and no intercooler will crank close to 190MPH.. Dont know many guys riding that way on the street..A street bike only runs near redline till the next shift point..while a snow mobile is usually running at or near peak rpm most of the time.. when you "pull the trigger" you want to see that tach at or near 10250 and most of us like to hold it there ]for a while]..On a street bike. the RPM's only reach redline prior to shift points So trying to compare a turbo on a street bike to a turbo on a snowmobile is like "apples and pumpkins". One other consideration on a street bike is a mounting location for a properly sized intercooler..it can be tough mounting one of these.
One final point..In one post the use of water cooling for the turbo was discussed.. I thought about this for a while and then it hit me. why wwould you want ot use 180 F-190F coolant to cool the turbo.. I guess in exteme case where the turbo is running at 100% or more of its rating you would want to cool the shaft bearing in the turbo, but using coolant near the temp of the out turbo air doesnt make sense to me.. I could be wrong..so would like to hear anyones thoughts on this.
I am not trying to "rain on anyone's parade", but after reading all this stuff for the last few months, I had to offer my observations and input.
I hope it hasn't been to boring.
I will be looking forward to anyones's input of what I have said.
Yamadoc Doc Sheller..UP of Michigan near Munising
intercoolers
any time you increase horsepower you reduce engine logevity to some degree.intercoolers will cause you to loose some boost but will make more h.p. because of the denser air charge.you can have a good set up with out an intercooler just not as efficiant.
any time you increase horsepower you reduce engine logevity to some degree.intercoolers will cause you to loose some boost but will make more h.p. because of the denser air charge.you can have a good set up with out an intercooler just not as efficiant.
Hi Snappy..
I couldnt agree more with you..the use of a turbo will increase the stress and strain on the bottom end of the motor..most reports on the RX1/R1 motor seems to indicate that Yamaha over built this motor and with any degre of common sense the motor should live a long and happy life.
I also agree with your observation about running with no intercooler..my 97 Vmax 4 had no intercooler on the turbo setup...but I did have to run 114 octane mixed 50/50 with 93 whenever I was on high boost. Some fellas in New England have run the Bender stage 2 most of last winter on GOOD 93..
There comment was that dont hold "it to the bar" for more than a 1000 ft.
My interest in haveing the intercooler is not so much for the extra HP [but its nice], my interest is in gving me a little extra protection against detonation.
I will probably run my unit on low booost most of the time..and on those "special" times when I want to run at high boost [8.5#] I will keep my runs under a 1000 ft, or add some 110 octane.
Thanks again for your input
Yamadoc in the UP
I couldnt agree more with you..the use of a turbo will increase the stress and strain on the bottom end of the motor..most reports on the RX1/R1 motor seems to indicate that Yamaha over built this motor and with any degre of common sense the motor should live a long and happy life.
I also agree with your observation about running with no intercooler..my 97 Vmax 4 had no intercooler on the turbo setup...but I did have to run 114 octane mixed 50/50 with 93 whenever I was on high boost. Some fellas in New England have run the Bender stage 2 most of last winter on GOOD 93..
There comment was that dont hold "it to the bar" for more than a 1000 ft.
My interest in haveing the intercooler is not so much for the extra HP [but its nice], my interest is in gving me a little extra protection against detonation.
I will probably run my unit on low booost most of the time..and on those "special" times when I want to run at high boost [8.5#] I will keep my runs under a 1000 ft, or add some 110 octane.
Thanks again for your input
Yamadoc in the UP
