Measuring offset

[rb2001srx700]

When measuring the clearance behind the secondary remove the spring so you can easily push the movable sheave to full shift out, it will stop once it is there. It will not go past that point when the spring is in place and WOT, if anything, might not even reach that point.

Sorry, that's what I meant. But as long as both the primary and secondary matches each other they should shift the same with springs in. Also my secondary has no float from factory. Is that normal? I'm use to the vectors where you can move your secondary a little back and forth.

 

[DMCTurbo]

I don't remember the exact number, but I do know that my 23 needs approx 1.5 mm or so more than my 17 was running using new XS825 belts. So saying that, the Hurricane bar does not work correctly on my 23. What changed? I believe the center to center changed from my 17 to the 23. A new XS 825 belt needs to sit down further in my 23 secondary than it did on the 17 with the same deflection.

There are many factors that will make the offset perfect for every machine, center to center, belt length and width as well. Only way to know the perfect offset is to measure it with the belt under tension and use a straight edge on the belt at full shift on the clutches and measure from belt to the straight edge to find out what's perfect on your machine and belt being used.

If you are indeed correct. What changed to affect the centre to centre? Hurricane told me the tool works on all years. I set up a 23 with the tool. No belt issues on it set to 58ish mm offset. It's a very strong runner as well.

 

[fatchance]

Short answer. You want to remove both springs then clamp the belt in the primary at 1:1 or full shift slightly into overdrive. Basically at the wear marks at the top of the primary sheaves. From there get the belt dead aligned with the primary so you will need to move the secondary in or out to achieve this. Take measurements off the belt to do this.

 

[02ViperMody44]

Sorry, that's what I meant. But as long as both the primary and secondary matches each other they should shift the same with springs in. Also my secondary has no float from factory. Is that normal? I'm use to the vectors where you can move your secondary a little back and forth.

Your float shows once your secondary is opened up on the SW. Easiest way I found was to push in on the helix allowing the belt to drop down, then you will see float.

 

[ranger1]

Sorry, that's what I meant. But as long as both the primary and secondary matches each other they should shift the same with springs in. Also my secondary has no float from factory. Is that normal? I'm use to the vectors where you can move your secondary a little back and forth.

Correct, the Sidewinder secondary's do not have any float

 

[02ViperMody44]

Correct, the Sidewinder secondary's do not have any float.

They do, just not static/at idle.

 

[fatchance]

Correct, the Sidewinder secondary's do not have any float.

Actually the Sidewinder secondary does float as set up from the factory. Allot of guys remove the float myself included and have good results with belt life as long as you take the time to properly align the clutches. I am referring to belt alignment and not offset here.
Quick search of remove the float will show you how to eliminate it.

 

[KnappAttack]

If you are indeed correct. What changed to affect the centre to centre? Hurricane told me the tool works on all years. I set up a 23 with the tool. No belt issues on it set to 58ish mm offset. It's a very strong runner as well.

I could only guess production tolerances or they did it intentionally change, I don't know. When jonlafon1 spoke about his new sled being different than his old sled, I honestly didn't believe him either, until I checked mine when putting the TAPP on from my 17 onto the 23. Just telling you what I found.

If the center did change, which it actually did from my 17 to my 23, it would not be possible to use the Hurricane bar and expect it to line up properly unless you were using a longer belt. The best way to line up properly is get the clutches and belt your going to use at full shift under tension, use the straight edge & lineup bar and measure to the belt while moving the secondary on the shaft to get the perfect offset, and this is exactly what I do. I'll then measure Yamahas way and right that number down on my primary clutch, so I can see if anything has moved down the road either from a belt blowing or just chassis twist or movement. I know that if the center to center changes or belt length or width changes that the offset is also going to change.

Fine if it worked on the 23 you did, but do you really know its accurate if your not physically mocking them up and measuring? Something has changed because the offset grew a fair amount from 2017 to somewhere on the newer machines I've physically checked, and it's by a quite a bunch, like I say right around 1.5mm, to the point where the Hurricane bar is no longer accurate on the new machines I've now tested measuring on the mock up.

I recall on my old 17 I was perfect on the Yamaha primary at 57.5 and the new machines its around 1.5mm more. The Hurricane bar was dead nuts accurate on the 17 when I would physically measure on a mockup, but not on the newer machine, so I don't utilize it anymore.

I'm at 60.4 on my TAPP on my 23 and was at 59.1 on the old 17, so thats a 1.3 mm difference between my 2017 and 2023 machines, others machines are going to vary some. I know a new XS825 belt needs to sit way lower in the secondary on my 23 vs the 17 I had, so the center to center is absolutely different between them, and the secondary needs more shim in-between the sheaves (old Cat revers secondary way that I shim for belt deflection) for proper deflection.

I don't have the 17 here anymore to be able to get an actual measurement, but its absolutely different on the centers and appears to be across the board on them from what I've seen and heard. On a positive note, I also don't see the complaints on blown belts much more, or at all even like we did back in 17, so perhaps they changed the centers or alignment some to better help the alignment or for twist in the chassis, don't know, but they did the same running changes to fix the alignment back in the 1100 Turbo Suzuki days too on those machines to help belt blowing when the engine alignment wasn't right. One can only guess on the change but that'd be my guess as to what's changed.

 

[ranger1]

They do, just not static/at idle.

Actually the Sidewinder secondary does float as set up from the factory. Allot of guys remove the float myself included and have good results with belt life as long as you take the time to properly align the clutches. I am referring to belt alignment and not offset here.
Quick search of remove the float will show you how to eliminate it.

Hmmm, as you know, these clutches utilize washers behind the secondary bolt to adjust the belt deflection. By removing washers the bolt pushes the helix/inner sheave inn dropping the belt lower between the sheaves, adding washers raises the belt in the sheaves. If there was float at idle the belt deflection couldnt be adjusted by the inward pressure on the helix as there wouldnt be any. With float at idle, the belt deflection could be adjusted inside the secondary like the older sleds. fatchance, were you and 02Viper referring to "float" while clutches are engaged or idling?

 

[KnappAttack]

Hmmm, as you know, these clutches utilize washers behind the secondary bolt to adjust the belt deflection. By removing washers the bolt pushes the helix/inner sheave inn dropping the belt lower between the sheaves, adding washers raises the belt in the sheaves. If there was float at idle the belt deflection couldnt be adjusted by the inward pressure on the helix as there wouldnt be any. With float at idle, the belt deflection could be adjusted inside the secondary like the older sleds. fatchance, were you and 02Viper referring to "float" while clutches are engaged or idling?

Sidewinder secondaries float. Some of us set them up so they absolutely do not float. Myself, I use old Cat reverse cam shims in-between the sheaves to adjust belt deflection and bolt the secondary down solid using shims as needed. So they line up perfect when in OD at full shift, but are a bit too far in when in lower belt & clutch shift ranges. The most important thing is they line up when at high belt speeds.


Ultimately with float, what happens is they can stick outwards and will not float back in unless letting off the throttle. This is what blows belts is when they are out of alignment and high offset like that, more so when the secondary is out further as the pressure is trying to shift the movable out quicker as it pulls it outward. This would be my guess as to why the lengthened the centers on the newer machines, they can get by having the greater offset without putting undue pressure on the secondaries movable sheave and forcing it open and making for excess slippage like the earlier sleds had and blowing all those belts. In other words, it's better to error on having the secondary inwards (less offset) rather than outwards (more offset).

 

[DMCTurbo]

I could only guess production tolerances or they did it intentionally change, I don't know. When jonlafon1 spoke about his new sled being different than his old sled, I honestly didn't believe him either, until I checked mine when putting the TAPP on from my 17 onto the 23. Just telling you what I found.

If the center did change, which it actually did from my 17 to my 23, it would not be possible to use the Hurricane bar and expect it to line up properly unless you were using a longer belt. The best way to line up properly is get the clutches and belt your going to use at full shift under tension, use the straight edge & lineup bar and measure to the belt while moving the secondary on the shaft to get the perfect offset, and this is exactly what I do. I'll then measure Yamahas way and right that number down on my primary clutch, so I can see if anything has moved down the road either from a belt blowing or just chassis twist or movement. I know that if the center to center changes or belt length or width changes that the offset is also going to change.

Fine if it worked on the 23 you did, but do you really know its accurate if your not physically mocking them up and measuring? Something has changed because the offset grew a fair amount from 2017 to somewhere on the newer machines I've physically checked, and it's by a quite a bunch, like I say right around 1.5mm, to the point where the Hurricane bar is no longer accurate on the new machines I've now tested measuring on the mock up.

I recall on my old 17 I was perfect on the Yamaha primary at 57.5 and the new machines its around 1.5mm more. The Hurricane bar was dead nuts accurate on the 17 when I would physically measure on a mockup, but not on the newer machine, so I don't utilize it anymore.

I'm at 60.4 on my TAPP on my 23 and was at 59.1 on the old 17, so thats a 1.3 mm difference between my 2017 and 2023 machines, others machines are going to vary some. I know a new XS825 belt needs to sit way lower in the secondary on my 23 vs the 17 I had, so the center to center is absolutely different between them, and the secondary needs more shim in-between the sheaves (old Cat revers secondary way that I shim for belt deflection) for proper deflection.

I don't have the 17 here anymore to be able to get an actual measurement, but its absolutely different on the centers and appears to be across the board on them from what I've seen and heard. On a positive note, I also don't see the complaints on blown belts much more, or at all even like we did back in 17, so perhaps they changed the centers or alignment some to better help the alignment or for twist in the chassis, don't know, but they did the same running changes to fix the alignment back in the 1100 Turbo Suzuki days too on those machines to help belt blowing when the engine alignment wasn't right. One can only guess on the change but that'd be my guess as to what's changed.

I didn't mock up the 23 because Hurricane told me his tool was still accurate. I did however mock up my 17 at full shift and the Hurricane tool was accurate. Thanks for the info.

 

[ranger1]

Sidewinder secondaries float. Some of us set them up so they absolutely do not float. Myself, I use old Cat reverse cam shims in-between the sheaves to adjust belt deflection and bolt the secondary down solid using shims as needed. So they line up perfect when in OD at full shift, but are a bit too far in when in lower belt & clutch shift ranges. The most important thing is they line up when at high belt speeds.


Ultimately with float, what happens is they can stick outwards and will not float back in unless letting off the throttle. This is what blows belts is when they are out of alignment and high offset like that, more so when the secondary is out further as the pressure is trying to shift the movable out quicker as it pulls it outward. This would be my guess as to why the lengthened the centers on the newer machines, they can get by having the greater offset without putting undue pressure on the secondaries movable sheave and forcing it open and making for excess slippage like the earlier sleds had and blowing all those belts. In other words, it's better to error on having the secondary inwards (less offset) rather than outwards (more offset).

Thanks for the explanation and I do understand they have float when the clutch is in motion, am I wrong in saying they do not have float at idle ( when the secondary isnt turning? RB200 was comparing his Sidewinder to his old Viper saying that the secondary had float, was able to slide back and forth on the jackshaft. My Apex and all my older sleds were the same also, had play on the shaft where as the Winder doesnt.

 

[74Nitro]

Thanks for the explanation and I do understand they have float when the clutch is in motion, am I wrong in saying they do not have float at idle ( when the secondary isnt turning? RB200 was comparing his Sidewinder to his old Viper saying that the secondary had float, was able to slide back and forth on the jackshaft. My Apex and all my older sleds were the same also, had play on the shaft where as the Winder doesnt.

 

[74Nitro]

See in the picture where you can see the bronze color washers in between the large washer and the end of the clutch shaft?
Leave the belt on your machine and push the sheaves open about 1/2 inch. The belt dropping down will hold them open. Then grab the whole clutch and slide it back and forth on the shaft. That's the float amount. If you want no float you have to add machinery washers to fill in here and the OD of said washers must be slightly smaller than the diameter of the clutch shaft.

 

[ranger1]

See in the picture where you can see the bronze color washers in between the large washer and the end of the clutch shaft?
Leave the belt on your machine and push the sheaves open about 1/2 inch. The belt dropping down will hold them open. Then grab the whole clutch and slide it back and forth on the shaft. That's the float amount. If you want no float you have to add machinery washers to fill in here and the OD of said washers must be slightly smaller than the diameter of the clutch shaft.

See in the picture where you can see the bronze color washers in between the large washer and the end of the clutch shaft?
Leave the belt on your machine and push the sheaves open about 1/2 inch. The belt dropping down will hold them open. Then grab the whole clutch and slide it back and forth on the shaft. That's the float amount. If you want no float you have to add machinery washers to fill in here and the OD of said washers must be slightly smaller than the diameter of the clutch shaft.

So when the belt is up as far as it can go on the secondary and the bolt with the washer is pushing against the helix, does the secondary slide back and forth on the jackshaft or not? Mine does not and any of the winders with those washers that you are talking about for deflection adjustment wont either. I do understand the "float that you and Mike are talking about but that kind of float isnt the same as what RB200 was asking about.