TURK,you said no way no how that an apex will be faster than an attak while using the white spring and stock clutching,my bro has the rtx o6 with my white spring and 23 top gear no studs and he sqeeks by me on top end this is 2,000 ft or better i have studs, ulmer kit. yes he is playing catch and i would expect to go by me with me having the longer track and studs more rotating mass. so i dont no what you are comparing to but i thought i would share this with everyone the white secondary does not slow the apex down in top end a least i dont think so.
Try him white secondary vs the pink same day same conditions & compare before making a final judgement.
ptt
Guest
Secondary springs
The question that has to answered is what does your sled need/want.
Quote:
My dealer grabbed the spec off of the Attak by accident and put the secondary spring back in at 60 degrees instead of the 70 from the factory.
I saw speeds on the speedo 8 MPH higher then I have ever seen. I was also on very hard pack with a newly installed predator 1.25" track.
I was told I would notice a little difference down low (a little slower) and would reach top end quicker and possibly even gain some on top.
What do you think about this setup? Should I go back to the factory settings?
Why do you think that YOUR sled liked this?
Was the pretension at 6-2 to much for the sled?
Too much resistance with the primary set up?
Were the RPM'S to high?
Were the RPM's to low?
Was the primary hotter than the secondary?
Were the conditions better than what was tested with the spring set at 70deg.?
If the RPM'S were to high with the stock setting could the increase that was seen been done by adding a slight amount of weight? Leaving the secondary set at 70deg.?
etc.
.
Clutch heat tells the tuner alot.
EVERYONE'S sled is slightly different.
Two guys put in the same kit, they run against each other One is faster than the other! WHY?
If one guy for eg. reduces the pretension. They run, now he's faster?
SLIGHT changes, for different sleds work.
Test, Test, Test,etc.
Take notes, take notes, take notes,etc.
Their are many ways to skin a cat
The question that has to answered is what does your sled need/want.
Quote:
My dealer grabbed the spec off of the Attak by accident and put the secondary spring back in at 60 degrees instead of the 70 from the factory.
I saw speeds on the speedo 8 MPH higher then I have ever seen. I was also on very hard pack with a newly installed predator 1.25" track.
I was told I would notice a little difference down low (a little slower) and would reach top end quicker and possibly even gain some on top.
What do you think about this setup? Should I go back to the factory settings?
Why do you think that YOUR sled liked this?
Was the pretension at 6-2 to much for the sled?
Too much resistance with the primary set up?
Were the RPM'S to high?
Were the RPM's to low?
Was the primary hotter than the secondary?
Were the conditions better than what was tested with the spring set at 70deg.?
If the RPM'S were to high with the stock setting could the increase that was seen been done by adding a slight amount of weight? Leaving the secondary set at 70deg.?
etc.
.
Clutch heat tells the tuner alot.
EVERYONE'S sled is slightly different.
Two guys put in the same kit, they run against each other One is faster than the other! WHY?
If one guy for eg. reduces the pretension. They run, now he's faster?
SLIGHT changes, for different sleds work.
Test, Test, Test,etc.
Take notes, take notes, take notes,etc.
Their are many ways to skin a cat
BADSLED
Lifetime Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2004
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- 1,356
- Location
- Syracuse, NY
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2012 Nytro MC Xpress 270
2011 Apex SE
2021 Sidewinder LTX SE - SOLD
I think the secondary spring deal it somewhat tricky with these sleds. All these springs work great it comes down to traction on holeshot and personal prference of backshit for trail riding. Test and see what you like, that's the only way!
BADSLED said:
Exactly!
SRXracer
Expert
With all things being equal, i think turk has got this one right. The softest secondary that you can run without sucking up the belt and over shifting will be the fastests. Heck, on the grass with a good clay starting line, we would run the red yamaha spring in our srx's. That is 2 softer than the silver! The problem comes on snow when you spin the track, the secondary shifts to accomodate it, and when it the track grabs, the secondary then has to backshift to accomodate it, causing a drop in rpm's and a loss of speed. Could the white spring be faster than the pink? Certainly, especially if the sled is getting alot of track spin. But that isn't to say that everyone can just throw in the white spring and expect to pick up a couple lengths, there are way to many other variables. All you can do it try it for yourself and see.
MyOutdoors
Expert
SXR, thanks for the great analogy! I've run into this with my Ulmer setup. On bare ice(144studs), I ran their silver and had perfect rpm's at 10600-700. This year with 168(24 outside belts) in packed snow, I could only run 10,300-400 and lost mid range and top. Per Allen, I went back to pink @ 6-1 and got my rpms back up to 10600-10700, I feel it engages harder though and on a good holeshot did smell my belt burning? I may go back to the pink and just take out some tip wieght, which Allen also suggested.
satan660
Extreme
i have 06 apex er 23 top gear... i have tried a dalton 51-43 with white spring at 60 (3-3) no studs... this pulls very hard for say 1000 feet, but no top end it just stops pulling...now change spring to pink at 60 (3-3) same helix does not pull as hard off the line but seams to be faster top end.... then i tried the pink spring with stock helix at 70 (6-1) pulled ok off the line but stopped pull on the top backed it off to 60(3-3) and gained top endmdkuni said:
MyOutdoors
Expert
I hate clutching! Some of the clutch guru's should start to pin an Apex specific clutching class!
ptt
Guest
i have 06 apex er 23 top gear... i have tried a dalton 51-43 with white spring at 60 (3-3) no studs... this pulls very hard for say 1000 feet, but no top end it just stops pulling...now change spring to pink at 60 (3-3) same helix does not pull as hard off the line but seams to be faster top end.... then i tried the pink spring with stock helix at 70 (6-1) pulled ok off the line but stopped pull on the top backed it off to 60(3-3) and gained top end[/quote]
Summary:
Helix 51-43 Dalton
white spring 3-3
what you like - bottom end
what you don't like - top end
Helix 51-43 dalton
Pink 3-3
what you like - top end
what you don't like - bottom end
Helix 51-43 yamaha
Pink 3 -3
likes - top end
dislikes - you don't say.
Helix 51-43 yamaha
Pink 6-1
Likes - bottom end
dislikes - top end
You don't say what the rpm's did during this testing? Do you remember?
Were the tests done on the same day?
Do you know which clutch was hotter?
lets keep this going
Summary:
Helix 51-43 Dalton
white spring 3-3
what you like - bottom end
what you don't like - top end
Helix 51-43 dalton
Pink 3-3
what you like - top end
what you don't like - bottom end
Helix 51-43 yamaha
Pink 3 -3
likes - top end
dislikes - you don't say.
Helix 51-43 yamaha
Pink 6-1
Likes - bottom end
dislikes - top end
You don't say what the rpm's did during this testing? Do you remember?
Were the tests done on the same day?
Do you know which clutch was hotter?
lets keep this going
SRXracer
Expert
That is exactly why there is no one right answer. Everyone has to be very careful with how they apply any of the info available out here. None of it can be applied as a blanket. There are just way to many variables - traction, condition of engine, gearing, snow condiditons, rider, running topend, or running on the bottom, the list just goes on and on. Any one of these springs may be the fastest in a certain condition... the hard part is recognizing it. Honestly, i think the stock stuff is probably still the best all the way around.
The problem I had with the the Proline secondary spring and the Yamaha silver is 8 out of 10 hole shots it would overshift causing to loose out of the hole, and we all know playing catch up is just no fun. Since installation of the white, my holeshots are much much more consistant and predictable. I think SRXracer is dead nuts on applying the info they get here, our sleds, conditions, temps, elevations, tracks, studs are all so different. There is no one perfect setup for us all. You really need to tune your own on a set of timing lights. Or against a test sled that remains unchanged during testing...BBY
welterracer
TY 4 Stroke God
I know one thing for sure... MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A GOOD/NEW BELT...
With this setup :23T and white spring I lost several races to a 03 F7 and a ZR900 because my belt was worn out and i was overreving at 11,100rpms.. ( i would launch hard out of the hole pulling the skis a good 1.5 feet off the ground and then the sled would fall on its face after that)
Once i changed to a new belt, i was just barely getting beat out of the hole and went by the other sleds easily at the 50ft mark and stayed 2-3 lengths ahead!
With this setup :23T and white spring I lost several races to a 03 F7 and a ZR900 because my belt was worn out and i was overreving at 11,100rpms.. ( i would launch hard out of the hole pulling the skis a good 1.5 feet off the ground and then the sled would fall on its face after that)
Once i changed to a new belt, i was just barely getting beat out of the hole and went by the other sleds easily at the 50ft mark and stayed 2-3 lengths ahead!
If your sled is running better with the white on a shortie your problem is your primary is overpowering your secondary & the white is helping keep a better balance but at a cost of some efficiency. You would be better off & gain a poopload of performance by lightening the primary clutch & loosening back the secondary pretension. By using the white you have the secondary & primary fighting against each other & ya sure; you may be faster then the pinlk but you would gain a lot more by taking out some primary weight. You want just enuff
pimary spring
primary weight
helix
secondary pretension
to accelerate at maxmum torque then slowly climb to max hp the fastest you can with out slipping or squeezing the secondary too much. 10 degree twist can mean 2-3 lengths in 660' on a different day in different conditions.
pimary spring
primary weight
helix
secondary pretension
to accelerate at maxmum torque then slowly climb to max hp the fastest you can with out slipping or squeezing the secondary too much. 10 degree twist can mean 2-3 lengths in 660' on a different day in different conditions.
satan660
Extreme
ptt said:
Summary:
Helix 51-43 Dalton
white spring 3-3
what you like - bottom end
what you don't like - top end
Helix 51-43 dalton
Pink 3-3
what you like - top end
what you don't like - bottom end
Helix 51-43 yamaha
Pink 3 -3
likes - top end
dislikes - you don't say.
Helix 51-43 yamaha
Pink 6-1
Likes - bottom end
dislikes - top end
You don't say what the rpm's did during this testing? Do you remember?
Were the tests done on the same day?
Do you know which clutch was hotter?
lets keep this going
[/quote]i want good hole shot and lots of top end. with the white spring i found the primary was hotter... and with the white spring at 60 my rpm was, off the line about 10300 then climb to 10900-11000 but at that rpm seemed to me it stop pulling... and with the dalton helix even with the pink spring it would climb to 11000... so i went with the stock helix with pink spring at 60 and still climb to 11000 so i tried the primary spring blue white blue brought my rpm down to 10700-10800 lost off the line but gained on the top 
