Steve verses the 8jP

[Beerman]

Thanks guys I’m flattered!
Yea I’m in agreement that the float isn’t consistent I’m not positive it actually moves as the clutches shift out under load. I talked with STM when I purchased my secondary and they seem to feel it’s not the thing to do. I have never floated any of my clutches so I really don’t think it helps.
Ok rewind to last year when our all time favorite clutch testing Guru, StevewithOCD was removing spring wind from his secondary and checking clutch temps. As he was removing wind he was also removing belt tension and the clutches got cooler. He lost a lot of throttle response in the process tho. Generally if you need to unwind your secondary spring down to 50 or 40 degrees of twist to get good belt temps your to shallow on you helix. Although he did have issues with slipping from the excessive offset at full shift out.
I’m positive the winder 35 stock helix is a little on the shallow side for a stock geared machine. Put a tune in it and it’s even worse. The sleds clutches need to open faster but the 35 helix resists that causing excessive belt tension. If you were to increase the helix angle at FULL THROTTLE those clutches will open faster even with a stiffer spring. springs tend to affect the lower power shifting forces more than the full throttle forces. Helix angle has more of a global effect, causing a clutch to shift faster or slower everywhere. It’s always been this way, when you make large power gains a helix change is best. Fine tuning is done with the spring.
Going steeper on the helix doesn’t always mean your response (backshift) has to suffer, you can get the response back with a stiffer secondary spring. What I’ve found is a steeper helix and stiffer spring tend to allow the clutches to open quicker and load the motor hard under full throttle, but tend to still be decent backshifting for trail riding at part throttle.
So I’m at 270hp and currently using the EPI purple (green a/c). The only real difference between my Secondary and the winder is the helix diameter. We know the angle will need to be less because of the Winder helix being larger it generates less side force. Mine is a 46/40
I’m really thinking someone needs to try this spring in a Winder clutch with a helix around 40~42 degrees 250hp or more.

PS1 - if your running lakes with huge gearing changes something around 38~39 degrees would be more appropriate. (Slow the shift)

PS2 - look at what weights you are running, the daltons are suited more for a straight angle helix, the Heavy Hitters are more used with a progressive helix, the STM’s will work with about anything because of the variety of weight placements.

PS3 - I’m sure a lot of guys will be testing many setups this year so don’t jump the gun, results will be pouring in soon!

PS4 - Thanks Steveo for an awsome OCD report, we need more like you around here!

Good to have you back!!!

 

[1nc 2000]

Thanks guys I’m flattered!
Yea I’m in agreement that the float isn’t consistent I’m not positive it actually moves as the clutches shift out under load. I talked with STM when I purchased my secondary and they seem to feel it’s not the thing to do. I have never floated any of my clutches so I really don’t think it helps.
Ok rewind to last year when our all time favorite clutch testing Guru, StevewithOCD was removing spring wind from his secondary and checking clutch temps. As he was removing wind he was also removing belt tension and the clutches got cooler. He lost a lot of throttle response in the process tho. Generally if you need to unwind your secondary spring down to 50 or 40 degrees of twist to get good belt temps your to shallow on you helix. Although he did have issues with slipping from the excessive offset at full shift out.
I’m positive the winder 35 stock helix is a little on the shallow side for a stock geared machine. Put a tune in it and it’s even worse. The sleds clutches need to open faster but the 35 helix resists that causing excessive belt tension. If you were to increase the helix angle at FULL THROTTLE those clutches will open faster even with a stiffer spring. springs tend to affect the lower power shifting forces more than the full throttle forces. Helix angle has more of a global effect, causing a clutch to shift faster or slower everywhere. It’s always been this way, when you make large power gains a helix change is best. Fine tuning is done with the spring.
Going steeper on the helix doesn’t always mean your response (backshift) has to suffer, you can get the response back with a stiffer secondary spring. What I’ve found is a steeper helix and stiffer spring tend to allow the clutches to open quicker and load the motor hard under full throttle, but tend to still be decent backshifting for trail riding at part throttle.
So I’m at 270hp and currently using the EPI purple (green a/c). The only real difference between my Secondary and the winder is the helix diameter. We know the angle will need to be less because of the Winder helix being larger it generates less side force. Mine is a 46/40
I’m really thinking someone needs to try this spring in a Winder clutch with a helix around 40~42 degrees 250hp or more.

PS1 - if your running lakes with huge gearing changes something around 38~39 degrees would be more appropriate. (Slow the shift)

PS2 - look at what weights you are running, the daltons are suited more for a straight angle helix, the Heavy Hitters are more used with a progressive helix, the STM’s will work with about anything because of the variety of weight placements.

PS3 - I’m sure a lot of guys will be testing many setups this year so don’t jump the gun, results will be pouring in soon!

PS4 - Thanks Steveo for an awsome OCD report, we need more like you around here!

Welcome back!
I am running the purple spring you speak of and a 41-37 helix. So far I really like it.

 

[Doowithblue]

Please indicate type of weights up front and belt choice to go with whatever you're running out back

 

[74Nitro]

Thanks guys I’m flattered!
Yea I’m in agreement that the float isn’t consistent I’m not positive it actually moves as the clutches shift out under load. I talked with STM when I purchased my secondary and they seem to feel it’s not the thing to do. I have never floated any of my clutches so I really don’t think it helps.
Ok rewind to last year when our all time favorite clutch testing Guru, StevewithOCD was removing spring wind from his secondary and checking clutch temps. As he was removing wind he was also removing belt tension and the clutches got cooler. He lost a lot of throttle response in the process tho. Generally if you need to unwind your secondary spring down to 50 or 40 degrees of twist to get good belt temps your to shallow on you helix. Although he did have issues with slipping from the excessive offset at full shift out.
I’m positive the winder 35 stock helix is a little on the shallow side for a stock geared machine. Put a tune in it and it’s even worse. The sleds clutches need to open faster but the 35 helix resists that causing excessive belt tension. If you were to increase the helix angle at FULL THROTTLE those clutches will open faster even with a stiffer spring. springs tend to affect the lower power shifting forces more than the full throttle forces. Helix angle has more of a global effect, causing a clutch to shift faster or slower everywhere. It’s always been this way, when you make large power gains a helix change is best. Fine tuning is done with the spring.
Going steeper on the helix doesn’t always mean your response (backshift) has to suffer, you can get the response back with a stiffer secondary spring. What I’ve found is a steeper helix and stiffer spring tend to allow the clutches to open quicker and load the motor hard under full throttle, but tend to still be decent backshifting for trail riding at part throttle.
So I’m at 270hp and currently using the EPI purple (green a/c). The only real difference between my Secondary and the winder is the helix diameter. We know the angle will need to be less because of the Winder helix being larger it generates less side force. Mine is a 46/40
I’m really thinking someone needs to try this spring in a Winder clutch with a helix around 40~42 degrees 250hp or more.

PS1 - if your running lakes with huge gearing changes something around 38~39 degrees would be more appropriate. (Slow the shift)

PS2 - look at what weights you are running, the daltons are suited more for a straight angle helix, the Heavy Hitters are more used with a progressive helix, the STM’s will work with about anything because of the variety of weight placements.

PS3 - I’m sure a lot of guys will be testing many setups this year so don’t jump the gun, results will be pouring in soon!

PS4 - Thanks Steveo for an awsome OCD report, we need more like you around here!

Hi CM, I have to wonder if Yamaha concurs with your thoughts on belt squeeze being excessive. The 19's now have a reverse angle with the helix finishing at 39 degrees. In order to compensate for the quicker and easier final shiftingthey have changed the end rivet in the weight from a solid steel to hollow aluminum.

 

[Beerman]

Hi CM, I have to wonder if Yamaha concurs with your thoughts on belt squeeze being excessive. The 19's now have a reverse angle with the helix finishing at 39 degrees. In order to compensate for the quicker and easier final shiftingthey have changed the end rivet in the weight from a solid steel to hollow aluminum.

Several of us tried that helix last year and it wasn't the solution. Don't forget - Yamaha is clutching for a stock Sidewinder. I'd guess over half of us on TY are modded and making in excess of 250 hp.

 

[Beerman]

Hi CM, I have to wonder if Yamaha concurs with your thoughts on belt squeeze being excessive. The 19's now have a reverse angle with the helix finishing at 39 degrees. In order to compensate for the quicker and easier final shiftingthey have changed the end rivet in the weight from a solid steel to hollow aluminum.

Actually, I'm going to take an even stronger stance on this and say "it doesn't matter one bit what Yamaha thinks at this time with the issues we have." Frankly, they abandoned SW owners on this issue.

Why do I suddenly have a visceral reaction thinking about this?

Facts:

• There are TONS of stock sleds blowing belts in low miles with the calibration they shipped these sleds with. In fairness, there are also a bunch that do not, why is that? One of the 8 man-made wonders of the world to this day.
• Secondary rollers shot at 100 miles or less for many of us
• Primary rollers shot after less than 500 miles for many of us
• Coil spring bind in the secondary

Opinion:

• Yamaha used to represent the very best in factory clutching, they dropped the ball on the Sidewinder.

If it really does turn out that Yamaha's offset spec is off and the main culprit of belt blowers, we can add that to the list of why their clutching opinion doesn't carry the weight it used to. Years ago, one of the Yamaha clutching engineers would visit TY, I think he's long gone. I still love Yamaha and this sled, don't get me wrong, but they've made multiple blunders on this clutching we've had to figure out ourselves like NEVER before.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

What secondary rollers blew?

Run the Hi-torque rollers, they are best IMO...made in Western Canada.

Sounds like good results, but I will say powertrail is not hard on belts, I never blew a belt at all in 17 in PT, its he early spool tunes corner to corner that kill belts.

Dan

 

[Beerman]

What secondary rollers blew?

Run the Hi-torque rollers, they are best IMO...made in Western Canada.

Sounds like good results, but I will say powertrail is not hard on belts, I never blew a belt at all in 17 in PT, its he early spool tunes corner to corner that kill belts.

Dan

Dan, then your clutching was far better than mine. I was solid with EcoTrail, all my belt issues started when I upped the ante to PowerTrail. I think once you get above 240 hp belt heat really starts to show up more.

 

[snowbeast]

Actually, I'm going to take an even stronger stance on this and say "it doesn't matter one bit what Yamaha thinks at this time with the issues we have." Frankly, they abandoned SW owners on this issue.

Why do I suddenly have a visceral reaction thinking about this?

Facts:

• There are TONS of stock sleds blowing belts in low miles with the calibration they shipped these sleds with. In fairness, there are also a bunch that do not, why is that? One of the 8 man-made wonders of the world to this day.
• Secondary rollers shot at 100 miles or less for many of us
• Primary rollers shot after less than 500 miles for many of us
• Coil spring bind in the secondary

Opinion:

• Yamaha used to represent the very best in factory clutching, they dropped the ball on the Sidewinder.

If it really does turn out that Yamaha's offset spec is off and the main culprit of belt blowers, we can add that to the list of why their clutching opinion doesn't carry the weight it used to. Years ago, one of the Yamaha clutching engineers would visit TY, I think he's long gone. I still love Yamaha and this sled, don't get me wrong, but they've made multiple blunders on this clutching we've had to figure out ourselves like NEVER before.

Well said Beerman Amen.

 

[saskattakman]

well said beerman..it's really sad a big company won't step up and cover most of these issues..the helix in the upgrade kits is just a money grab and while it might work for the 1" track on srx there's no way it's going to work or the big lug guys or tuned sleds been tested and proven.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Dan, then your clutching was far better than mine. I was solid with EcoTrail, all my belt issues started when I upped the ante to PowerTrail. I think once you get above 240 hp belt heat really starts to show up more.

My 240 Hurricane tune pulls more weight then that PT did, and snaps instantly.

That is why it never blew a belt no matter how hard I rode it.

With Hurricane tunes, belt life becomes alot harder....Just look at the dyno sheet. And you can see exactly how hard the boost is in each tune down low.

Dan

 

[74Nitro]

Actually, I'm going to take an even stronger stance on this and say "it doesn't matter one bit what Yamaha thinks at this time with the issues we have." Frankly, they abandoned SW owners on this issue.

Why do I suddenly have a visceral reaction thinking about this?

Facts:

• There are TONS of stock sleds blowing belts in low miles with the calibration they shipped these sleds with. In fairness, there are also a bunch that do not, why is that? One of the 8 man-made wonders of the world to this day.
• Secondary rollers shot at 100 miles or less for many of us
• Primary rollers shot after less than 500 miles for many of us
• Coil spring bind in the secondary

Opinion:

• Yamaha used to represent the very best in factory clutching, they dropped the ball on the Sidewinder.

If it really does turn out that Yamaha's offset spec is off and the main culprit of belt blowers, we can add that to the list of why their clutching opinion doesn't carry the weight it used to. Years ago, one of the Yamaha clutching engineers would visit TY, I think he's long gone. I still love Yamaha and this sled, don't get me wrong, but they've made multiple blunders on this clutching we've had to figure out ourselves like NEVER before.

Actually, I'm going to take an even stronger stance on this and say "it doesn't matter one bit what Yamaha thinks at this time with the issues we have." Frankly, they abandoned SW owners on this issue.

Why do I suddenly have a visceral reaction thinking about this?

Facts:

• There are TONS of stock sleds blowing belts in low miles with the calibration they shipped these sleds with. In fairness, there are also a bunch that do not, why is that? One of the 8 man-made wonders of the world to this day.
• Secondary rollers shot at 100 miles or less for many of us
• Primary rollers shot after less than 500 miles for many of us
• Coil spring bind in the secondary

Opinion:

• Yamaha used to represent the very best in factory clutching, they dropped the ball on the Sidewinder.

If it really does turn out that Yamaha's offset spec is off and the main culprit of belt blowers, we can add that to the list of why their clutching opinion doesn't carry the weight it used to. Years ago, one of the Yamaha clutching engineers would visit TY, I think he's long gone. I still love Yamaha and this sled, don't get me wrong, but they've made multiple blunders on this clutching we've had to figure out ourselves like NEVER before.

Agree on the secondary rollers, and I'm ticked that Yamaha didn't replace all of these at no charge. Aside from that, I'm not as concerned about the other issues as many here. I recently serviced 2 17 Winders with a couple thousand kms on them. Removed the rollers and visually inspected them - no cracks. One of the machines has blown one belt and the other has never blown one. Belt life with the 19's on otherwise stock machines is yet to be determined.
Is there room for improvement? Sure, but the sky isn't falling.

 

[newtron]

I have 400 hard miles on my srx with multiple runs over 120 mph and so far no belt issues! I am running 260 maxspool tune and the only thing I have changed are the weights in the primary. The back shift is weak, so going to try the secondary wrapped at 6-1 instead of the factory 3-3.

 

[DTR 82-27]

Powertrail was wimpiest tune I ever seen, and why I moved to early spool. That '17 was a turd, You can see dozens of my old posts how bad it was.

My 240 Hurricane tune pulls more weight then that PT did, and snaps instantly.

That is why it never blew a belt no matter how hard I rode it.

With Hurricane tunes, belt life becomes alot harder....Just look at the dyno sheet. And you can see exactly how hard the boost is in each tune down low.

Dan

Dan, were you blowing belts last year around this time when you were pushing a 61 mm offset? I was really surprised that was in the video you made. I think we all realize it’s closer to 57.5 mm.

Also, your comment got off topic. I’m not sure the Powertrail tune is the “wimpiest” tune out there. You probably get a good kickback to advertise for Hurricane but there is no need to bash TD while you are doing it. I think we should all respect the vendors on this site.

 

[Bigblue1]

I'm starting a new thread on some SERIOUS clutch testing/abuse this weekend.
GREAT NEWS.............and not so good news.

LET's BACK UP:

I had 6300 miles on my 'Winder & blew belts every 900 miles with one at 500.
I tested last year with weights, springs, helix's, rollers & belts.
Last year i went back to stock except Dalton B/O rear spring & got my best results.
1. c to c=62.5mm
2. parallel within .5 mm end to end
3. 911 cover with glide washers
4. TP rear rollers
5. stock front spring (new since my first one broke)
6 offset was 60.5mm

THIS YEAR CHANGES:

1. Re-torqued my stub shaft & primary (this changed my offset BTW)
2. I used Hurricane tool that put me at 57.5mm. The tool wanted me at 57. (this is different per sled)
3. TD Powertrail with Stock Muffler (this is important for some aspects of this post)
4. Dalton weights with 72 grams
5. New TP primary 14.8 rollers
6. BOP secondary adjuster with 1mm of float & belt even with top of clutch
7. Dalton NEW secondary B/O spring set at 80 degrees (per Dalton & TD)
8. Stock helix
9. LOTS of vents to help cool clutches

HERE"S MY NEW YEARS STORY:

In "the County" in Maine with surprisingly great riding & testing.
--First day was normal riding & met FLEECER for most of the 240 mile day.
FLEECER is a Mainer Mad Man with tons of power that blew TONS of belts last year but is having great success this year. His own venting system seems to be helping along with the Hurricane tool. He is also very knowledgable, but is very quiet on this site. He needs to "talk" more. Hopefully i rubbed off on him a bit.
--Second day i met WINTERWOLF for railroad bed riding. He likes the beds. In fact when he says he's going to bed, i think he sleeps on route 105!
Both of us used the Hurricane tool & he is SM modded also.
After very long pulls both our clutches were luke warm. GREAT SIGN! If you can hold your clutches after 30 minutes or more of 100 to 120 mph, you are headed in the right direction.
I forgot my temp gun so this was best i could do. We were actually a tad cooler then the completely stock 'Winder.

TODAY: The Good News

I decided to get very aggressive for the TY members' benefit. Lost my friends, but i'm making new ones anyways.
After banging the belt in the corner to corner trails, 3 lake pulls, more corner bangin', big sweepers where i lost my friends again then a long pull on Long Lake at 124 mph speedo pulling 8950 rpm's until lunch.

Belt was still level with top of clutch & still just warm. Pulling 9000 rpm's under ALL conditions ALL day.
So the GOOD NEWS is, i'm convinced my clutches are HAPPY!
Well at least for 550 miles, BUT just like a woman, their moods change.
While sniffing Mad Dog FLEECER's #*$&@ coming out of a corner on a straightaway my rev limiter starting spittin' & burpin'
BLEW the secondary rollers out!
GONE!
They did have over 6000 miles on them & i was violent with them last year during testing. Maybe i need to change them every year with my primary rollers.

BUT THE BELT IS STILL GOOD!
I don't believe this has anything to do with any of the changes. If i blow them again then something is wrong.
I will re-group at home with new rollers & use the same belt until over 1000 miles or it breaks.
At that point i will have temp data & will compare it to the Carbon belt i plan on using next.
Then same again with XS belt.

P.S: I am doing all this for the good of others.......................................................OK that's a lie, but i think Yamaha should hire me to test their clutches.

Thank you for taking the time to record this Steve, very helpful and why this site is so much better than other brand specific sites.