Team Primary on Winder secondary mocked up

[staggs65]

I have all the parts I need now to install thanks to a huge box that arrived late last week from Dalton.

Just back from riding up north last week and this weekend. That damn Yamaha primary is so damn irritating with that awful rattle from 4-5000 RPM. Good lord is it awful! Will be installing the Team this week. Still, we do not have a stitch of snow on the ground here at home for testing.

What I found this weekend is I'm finally able to keep a belt on for over 300 miles with the Yamaha clutches though.

Aligned with Hurricane bar and bolted solid for zero float, used 8DN belt and EPI purple because white Dalton Cat torsion spring for more side pressure didn't make it here before I left for north. Found my top end I've been missing by using a heavier side pressure secondary spring. Pulls like a freight train now and keeps on pulling. Last season I was getting vibrations I thought was from the track vibrating from stud pattern and track ratchet. I believe now it was slippage in the driven clutch all along. I just needed more side pressure. the recipe that was working for others, wasn't working for me with stock driven springs or the black/orange. I just had too much belt slippage with the traction I had and the trail conditions I was in.

Ended up back with the 35 helix even on the Purple EPI cat spring. 41-37 was too low on RPM at the hit and R's would climb downtrack. Could have done the 39-35 but opted to go to the straight 35 angle for more response and straighten the shift out. Not that is was any faster, but trail rode better this way with better responsiveness. Overall I like the heavier side pressure driven spring.

What holes did you run the purple EPI in

 

[KnappAttack]

The ad isn't' showing a box. Is there a way to look at the clutch itself and determine if is the updated version? Is the part number stamped on the fixed sheave?
I will have to get a hold of the seller if I choose this route.

Anyone do any testing this weekend?

Yes, its on the cover too.

 

[KnappAttack]

What holes did you run the purple EPI in

0-1 and is 24.5# of break force.

I'd use the Dalton White, much better quality spring IMO. the Purple EPI has already started to loose some oomph. I will also be testing the Dalton Black/Lime as well once I switch over to the Team. I just didn't have it here in time for testing last week before I left.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Hi Dan,
Lots have asked recently about how cat secondary springs may compare...I thought..." there must be something on line...because last year everyone wanted springs not so heavy...now they seem to want to compare springs that are way heavier",lol...Funny thing is, some of the same ones who thought the very soft pink (apex) in the new sidewinder SRX must be the ticket now are asking about cat springs! It keeps me entertained. Some are fully switching from what they already ordered and planned to test with and they havent even tested yet with no snow! Internet and sledheads= powerfiul. (and good for business I guess)

The YBT Black /Tan is one that we had requests for. the pressures and twist values are all there onthe page. Some people with very tall gearing and bigger power /turbos requested something like that and they seem happy with it and re-order them for others etc. Its been going out the door. Probably good for some. For most people with trail tuned sidewinders the Standard DPSS-YBO Black/orange will still be the more suitable with most of the kits out there for stock clutches, and is a far bigger selling option.

We have always had some that do it with Cat springs. Some like it, some don't, I'm sure you can make either work ...like all clutching, everyone is right in their own mind or whatever, fine with me either way. There are lots that use the Cat springs also, it may however require that you may have to re-work the whole rest of your clutch recipe a bit, so maybe dont just read half the story. Remember that clutching is the whole system and changing one part may make the rest of what you run in both clutches have different requirements. In particular with Sidewinders, since there are so many variations of tune, gearing, clutch recipes and then ..I guess primary clutches thrown into the mix.

Nice to see people keep testing though, you never know what comes from R&D. It may be just the ticket for the thing Mike is doing with the Team clutch. I'm sure he will see soon.

I just thought I would clarify the spring comparison a bit ( Cat springs to Yamaha clutch) for those interested in the experimentation of it.

Offset issues and lack of testing different setups has gotten here.
It’s too bad yamaha has spec’ed out the offset incorrect imo.
I’ve been using the higher compression cat springs in all my roller secondarys for years with good success. It’s what I’m currently using.
New clutches need testing to find the sweet spot, no other way to do it.
Yamaha stock secondary setup is now being found to work just fine with an offset below 58mm, that’s telling me the factory offset was to positive causing the secondary to be forced open at full shift.
A spring with more side pressure shouldn’t be as prone to positive offset issues like this.

Glad someone is able to laugh about it, many are not.

 

[journeyman]

Just back from riding up north last week and this weekend. That damn Yamaha primary is so damn irritating with that awful rattle from 4-5000 RPM. Good lord is it awful! Will be installing the Team this week. Still, we do not have a stitch of snow on the ground here at home for testing.
.

Here I was thinking you already had the Team installed.

 

[STAIN]

Yes, its on the cover too.

View attachment 144765

People better beware. Some of the cheaper TEAM primary's out there for sale are the old part number. I just confirmed this on one of the TEAM clutches I was looking at. There are some new take off out there that are NOT the updated part number....

 

[STAIN]

0-1 and is 24.5# of break force.

I'd use the Dalton White, much better quality spring IMO. the Purple EPI has already started to loose some oomph. I will also be testing the Dalton Black/Lime as well once I switch over to the Team. I just didn't have it here in time for testing last week before I left.

So, You found the stock 35 worked best with the EPI purple? Better then the the 41-37??? Interesting.....
I tried the straight 40 with Cat Green secondary spring this weekend and found it to pull very hard mid range and up. But still it dosent drive as hard on the bottom as the turbo 1100's I ride with. It will leave them 35mph and up but they "drive" better off the bottom and out of corners. They are all tuned 240-280 hp. I am running SMT from Hurricane and thought the results would be the opposite. More testing.......Maybe try the Cat green with the stock 35???

 

[staggs65]

0-1 and is 24.5# of break force.

I'd use the Dalton White, much better quality spring IMO. the Purple EPI has already started to loose some oomph. I will also be testing the Dalton Black/Lime as well once I switch over to the Team. I just didn't have it here in time for testing last week before I left.

Thanks, I'll give the Dalton white a try. I had the same feeling like track was ratcheting when the boost would hit on hard trails with good traction. Could have been secondary slip for me also

 

[helix]

Offset issues and lack of testing different setups has gotten here.
It’s too bad yamaha has spec’ed out the offset incorrect imo.
I’ve been using the higher compression cat springs in all my roller secondarys for years with good success. It’s what I’m currently using.
New clutches need testing to find the sweet spot, no other way to do it.
Yamaha stock secondary setup is now being found to work just fine with an offset below 58mm, that’s telling me the factory offset was to positive causing the secondary to be forced open at full shift.
A spring with more side pressure shouldn’t be as prone to positive offset issues like this.

Glad someone is able to laugh about it, many are not.

 

[helix]

I'm not laughing about it, what I said I find entertaining is the power of internet.

We have a fairly steady stream of email and inquiry about whats popular...and I say it again, it truly is all over the place for helix angles, secondary settings, and related gearing. Some buy our Yamaha pink/white one week, and then a Cat spring the next week, opposite extremes...power of internet. Thats what I mean. Nothing wrong with it, it is all testing, but you know what I mean.

Many times from people testing or getting parts to experiment etc. However lots of people are following lots of good guys here...they dont always have a lot of experience and I often caution them to be careful and make sure that when they are comparing notes, ..that they make sure it it comparing apples to apples before just jumping on a certain helix or spring if they have not yet even tested or if the application they are reading about is quite different than their own. We wish them the best and happy testing, We know their is no certain set up that will suit all. In the end, of course, it is up to them.

The helix/spring/set up on a 280-290 race tune is not the same always as a guy with a eco or powertrail sled with stock gears....etc, let alone a whole different primary clutch.

A lot of people enjoy doing clutch tuning. They are all just trying to prove what works best for their own gears,tune,etc.

I dont really think there is any lack of testing on this vehicle. We see and hear it pretty regular for a couple years. There are lots that have already gotten there and they claim to have huge improvement in belt life. If that set up doesn't work for someone else's application doesnt mean they are wrong. They have indeed tested and found what works for them.

As mentioned, it certainly doesn't matter to me which type of springs they use. We have customers that use both. Heck, I know a guy who uses a regular YBO black / orange secondary spring on a MCX (larger turbo) sidewinder at approx 350 hp...with a TAPP primary and it is what he uses without it slipping. Some others in that situation use Cat springs. It is not that either one is wrong, it is just being done differently. Remember all those posts last year about getting back closer to stock and softer springs and all the great belt life stories?...that all I'm saying.

But to get back on Mike's topic,

Lots of great people with tons of experience and good testers and they are doing what it takes to make their own needs like Mike is doing here. He is using a heavier secondary spring and trying a whole new set up. Thats a good thing and lots learn from guys that do that. If his well known knowledge and testing help create a set up with a TEAM primary...it may be a good starting point for others who may want to experiment with the same thing.

Mike has not been happy with belt life on his own sled and he is doing what needs to be done on his sled and doing the real testing for himself....and his conversion to a team primary. He has stated he already switched from a helix that he thought would be good to something else...and it will change again based on his test results...because that is the key to success...the testing.
...sort of just like all those cat helixes we made for him for that old Vmax4 800...back when going 146 mph on tar was a big deal. Testing for yourself gets you there...and those who do the most serious testing usually win.

My post was, as you can see, done to offer a more direct comparison of Cat springs to the Yamaha application using the compressed heights at Yamaha test height dimensions, and torsion value that some may not test the same way. 9-1 seemed to be the most similar torsion to what people run in other applications but again, that is something that can be tried. I was posting mostly for his reference since I had talked to him the night before

Probably should have known better, since people read things in different ways, but those numbers are here to read anyway

 

[snowbeast]

Thanks, I'll give the Dalton white a try. I had the same feeling like track was ratcheting when the boost would hit on hard trails with good traction. Could have been secondary slip for me also

what is a Dalton white,he has pink/white,is that it?

 

[fatchance]

what is a Dalton white,he has pink/white,is that it?

Dalton Cat white is 98lbs 165 lbs Pete. It's all there in the Dalton site. Dale posted the link a few posts back.

 

[snowbeast]

0-1 and is 24.5# of break force.

I'd use the Dalton White, much better quality spring IMO. the Purple EPI has already started to loose some oomph. I will also be testing the Dalton Black/Lime as well once I switch over to the Team. I just didn't have it here in time for testing last week before I left.

Mike would you clock the Dalton/cat white spring at 0-1 same as your purple EPI?

 

[snowbeast]

Dalton Cat white is 98lbs 165 lbs Pete. It's all there in the Dalton site. Dale posted the link a few posts back.

Thanks,i had to do some digging,but found all his Cat springs,as there tangs are different,as far as clocking is concerned,much like my Ulmer secondary pink I now have.

 

[sledding rocks]

0-1 and is 24.5# of break force.

I'd use the Dalton White, much better quality spring IMO. the Purple EPI has already started to loose some oomph. I will also be testing the Dalton Black/Lime as well once I switch over to the Team. I just didn't have it here in time for testing last week before I left.

I just tried the dalton white 0-1 and a straight 35 and my results were good my rpm r constant and steady threw out my rpm vs the 41/37 this combo feels good , I may try the 41/35 again to compare , thanks mike