Nikolai
TY 4 Stroke God
***If there is anything a forum member would like to add or have me edit in this first post please send me a PM***
With so many members currently using, or switching to 2008+ AC Float skids I think it'd be beneficial to have an official thread dedicated to just the Float suspension.
- Skid location & installation
- Track tension,
- Float shock pressures
- Alternate rear shock setups
- Alternate front shocks/springs
- Anti-stab kits,
- Lightweight parts
- Big wheel kits
First some links that I think are valuable
http://oftracing.com/ strongest & best looking 2 & 3 wheel kits money can buy
http://www.bd-xtreme.com/ lightweight suspension arms, small idler kits for the track shock, anti-stab kits
http://flaneinc.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=37_22 lightweight suspension arms, cross shafts, rear wheel kits
http://www.iceageperformance.com/ custom length rails, lightweight cross shafts and rear wheel kits
http://alternativeimpact.com/ titanium front swing arm
http://www.zbrozracing.com/ excellent source for affordable stiffer track shock springs
Microfiche for looking up parts diagrams & prices http://www.arcticcatpartshouse.com/?gclid=CKqusNf-_K0CFYoZQgodcBoJuw
In the following post I'm going to transfer as much information as possible from my AK build thread into this one. I'm going to edit the irrelevant parts of posts out so I apologize in advance.
With so many members currently using, or switching to 2008+ AC Float skids I think it'd be beneficial to have an official thread dedicated to just the Float suspension.
- Skid location & installation
- Track tension,
- Float shock pressures
- Alternate rear shock setups
- Alternate front shocks/springs
- Anti-stab kits,
- Lightweight parts
- Big wheel kits
First some links that I think are valuable
http://oftracing.com/ strongest & best looking 2 & 3 wheel kits money can buy
http://www.bd-xtreme.com/ lightweight suspension arms, small idler kits for the track shock, anti-stab kits
http://flaneinc.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=37_22 lightweight suspension arms, cross shafts, rear wheel kits
http://www.iceageperformance.com/ custom length rails, lightweight cross shafts and rear wheel kits
http://alternativeimpact.com/ titanium front swing arm
http://www.zbrozracing.com/ excellent source for affordable stiffer track shock springs
Microfiche for looking up parts diagrams & prices http://www.arcticcatpartshouse.com/?gclid=CKqusNf-_K0CFYoZQgodcBoJuw
In the following post I'm going to transfer as much information as possible from my AK build thread into this one. I'm going to edit the irrelevant parts of posts out so I apologize in advance.
Nikolai
TY 4 Stroke God
Nikolai
I lowered the front arm of the cat skid another inch last night which was a PIA. I had to holesaw through my tunnel brace so the bolt would be against the flat of the tunnel. This was the only way to keep the back of the skid low for exhaust clearance and still have it sit completely flat. I only have 16.5" shocks up front too. I'm not sure how the guys with 17.5" shocks are running the front arm so high in the tunnel without there being a ton of preload on the rear shock. If I lift the back of the sled and lower it to the ground the skid sits perfectly flat and both shocks preload about the same(instead of most of it being on the rear). I'm hoping that will mean an improvement in bump absorption and ride quality.
I do wish these skids would maintain track tension. I have to keep the back of the skid mounted low enough that the track doesn't slap the header when the it's compressed. My Expert-X always maintained perfect track tension. Maybe the 153/162 suspensions are better?
hugger70mtnmax
I run the 162 Cat skid in mine. Last year I started out with the track fairly loose. This year I am adjusting per the Nytro instructions, or in other words pretty tight. The vibration issues that I was dealing with last year seem to be gone. I have also not noticed any issues with the track slapping around like it seemed to before. So it very well may be better on the longer track models. I am only running about 130 in the rear shock and the front shock is preloaded about two thirds of the way so those settings are not super agressive.
Off Trail Mike
I don't quite get why the 141 is so different. If I get a chance I'll lay it out in CAD to see why, as I have 141 rails too.
The 153 AC geometry is really quite different, and it is partially to do with AC M's super low angle of approach & Yami's 7 tooth drivers vs AC's 8's. When you go from yami 153 to AC 153, you loose an inch of ground clearance and the track is about an inch higher in the tunnel. Here's what the 153 AC looks like in my sled...finally installed.
Like your's, when I lower my suspension slowly, it touches down pretty much flat front to back and I can see weight coming off the front suspension which is good.
I'm with you on the 16.5" shocks, because they should be the right choice. If you lower the skid's ground clearance by an inch, you need to do the same with the skis to maintain balanced front/back pressure, although I am suprised ...... the 17.5's look like they will work. I'll try the 16.5's too.
My biggest concern is with the track being higher in the tunnel by an inch. I have 4.5" between the track and the top of the tunnel. I plan to put an undertunnel that is 2.25 - 2.375" thick, which gives me about 2.25" for the track to baloon at speed. Not sure if its enough, because if it isn't, I'm screwed as I can't easily lower the front mount like you did as I have no room to move the skid backwards, so moving the skid down screws your approach angle.
rlcofmn
Keep this in mind when you figure your undertunnel... How much I fought exhaust clearance and the ill effects of changing your skid to clear exhaust is why that chassis is in a snowbank for a death bed.
Off Trail Mike
Thanks for the heads up Rlcofmn, I saw those pic's on the original build and never forgot them....makes me wonder if an undertunnel will ever work.
I'm using a Vector header which moves the silencer forward as far as practical, unless you butcher the header...not prepared for that just yet. At least the Vector header adapts to 2" exhaust tubing, and not 2.25 like the nytro, so I can keep the silencer thinner
I am thinking of fabricating a 16" x 8 x 2.25" slilencer with 2" inlet and an oval outlet in the back....maybe 4" wide x 1" thick. The plan is to taper the rear of the silencer up to meet the oval outlet, kinda like the outlet of a yoshi RS5 but a much longer taper. So if (when) a lug does catch it, both the muffler and the paddle will receive a glancing blow.
Hopefully this will keep the entire muffler forward of the upper idler wheels by 4 or 5 inches, so I am hoping its enough, otherwise I'll be building a new block off plate with a raised section for a silencer...and that would be a royal PITA.
On second thought, I think I'll drain the air out of the rear float and collapse the skid to see what's in there for room, but I'll bet you I don't have 2-1/2" in the back!
Nikolai
My issue wasn't ballooning. My track was smacking the header/exhaust when the skid would collapse and no longer had track tension. I hadn't done damage yet but it was only a matter of time. I don't have an M sled to measure but they have to sit at least a couple inches lower at the belly pan.
Our setups look identical to me except your front arm is a little higher. Other wise the rear scissor, lower shock linkage angle, ect. all look the same. Before I took my picture I sat on the sled and then hopped off. I assume you did the same thing? What do you weight? I'm about 185 lbs dressed. One thing I would like to try is a longer front track shock. I think a +1" shock would allow the front arm to move back up but still keep some pressure on the front of the rails. Someone on Snowest used a longer Firecat shock and was happy with the results.
Off Trail Mike
Caleb: Yep, I got on and off the sled...and I'm 205 lbs dressed.
You're running the 12-1/2" XF shock and not the 11-1/4" M front shock right? Thought I'd throw it out there, as this would make a really big difference, but I don't even think the 11-1/4" will fit the 141 rails. It would be worth trying the longer shock up front, should help put more pressure on the front of the skid too.
So here's the pick of the 141 rails up to the 153, and their identical except for difference. The approach angle is steeper on the 141 by maybe 5-7 degrees. Its not too noticable in the picture but look just back of the antistab. With a steeper approach, your front holes should be lower in your tunnel and slightly ahead.
Are you finding that you have too much weight on the skis or just an issue of track tension?
Nikolai
The only issue I've had is track tension. My skid should have the 11 1/4" shock but I'll double check after after work tonight.
beeze455
The below picture is my skid setup with the shaft out waiting for extros. With my standard drivers it ratcheted on throttle. I put the extros on and it stopped ratcheting, but made a noise when slowing down. Rode it and it started ratcheting when I hit a hard bump and pushed the throttle. Then it started to do it when I climbed hills.
said screw it and tightened it up on the side of the trail. Gotta see how tight it is, but it is tight. No more noise on slow down or ratcheting.
hugger70mtnmax
My issues I was having with the track loosening was when the rear suspension would compress a lot. The worst times were when cresting a hill with a bump at the top where I could feel the skid compress. I have not had the same issues with the track tighter.
It would be interesting to poke around on the cat forums a little to see if they have this problem at all.
I lowered the front arm of the cat skid another inch last night which was a PIA. I had to holesaw through my tunnel brace so the bolt would be against the flat of the tunnel. This was the only way to keep the back of the skid low for exhaust clearance and still have it sit completely flat. I only have 16.5" shocks up front too. I'm not sure how the guys with 17.5" shocks are running the front arm so high in the tunnel without there being a ton of preload on the rear shock. If I lift the back of the sled and lower it to the ground the skid sits perfectly flat and both shocks preload about the same(instead of most of it being on the rear). I'm hoping that will mean an improvement in bump absorption and ride quality.
I do wish these skids would maintain track tension. I have to keep the back of the skid mounted low enough that the track doesn't slap the header when the it's compressed. My Expert-X always maintained perfect track tension. Maybe the 153/162 suspensions are better?
hugger70mtnmax
I run the 162 Cat skid in mine. Last year I started out with the track fairly loose. This year I am adjusting per the Nytro instructions, or in other words pretty tight. The vibration issues that I was dealing with last year seem to be gone. I have also not noticed any issues with the track slapping around like it seemed to before. So it very well may be better on the longer track models. I am only running about 130 in the rear shock and the front shock is preloaded about two thirds of the way so those settings are not super agressive.
Off Trail Mike
I don't quite get why the 141 is so different. If I get a chance I'll lay it out in CAD to see why, as I have 141 rails too.
The 153 AC geometry is really quite different, and it is partially to do with AC M's super low angle of approach & Yami's 7 tooth drivers vs AC's 8's. When you go from yami 153 to AC 153, you loose an inch of ground clearance and the track is about an inch higher in the tunnel. Here's what the 153 AC looks like in my sled...finally installed.
Like your's, when I lower my suspension slowly, it touches down pretty much flat front to back and I can see weight coming off the front suspension which is good.
I'm with you on the 16.5" shocks, because they should be the right choice. If you lower the skid's ground clearance by an inch, you need to do the same with the skis to maintain balanced front/back pressure, although I am suprised ...... the 17.5's look like they will work. I'll try the 16.5's too.
My biggest concern is with the track being higher in the tunnel by an inch. I have 4.5" between the track and the top of the tunnel. I plan to put an undertunnel that is 2.25 - 2.375" thick, which gives me about 2.25" for the track to baloon at speed. Not sure if its enough, because if it isn't, I'm screwed as I can't easily lower the front mount like you did as I have no room to move the skid backwards, so moving the skid down screws your approach angle.
rlcofmn
Keep this in mind when you figure your undertunnel... How much I fought exhaust clearance and the ill effects of changing your skid to clear exhaust is why that chassis is in a snowbank for a death bed.
Off Trail Mike
Thanks for the heads up Rlcofmn, I saw those pic's on the original build and never forgot them....makes me wonder if an undertunnel will ever work.
I'm using a Vector header which moves the silencer forward as far as practical, unless you butcher the header...not prepared for that just yet. At least the Vector header adapts to 2" exhaust tubing, and not 2.25 like the nytro, so I can keep the silencer thinner
I am thinking of fabricating a 16" x 8 x 2.25" slilencer with 2" inlet and an oval outlet in the back....maybe 4" wide x 1" thick. The plan is to taper the rear of the silencer up to meet the oval outlet, kinda like the outlet of a yoshi RS5 but a much longer taper. So if (when) a lug does catch it, both the muffler and the paddle will receive a glancing blow.
Hopefully this will keep the entire muffler forward of the upper idler wheels by 4 or 5 inches, so I am hoping its enough, otherwise I'll be building a new block off plate with a raised section for a silencer...and that would be a royal PITA.
On second thought, I think I'll drain the air out of the rear float and collapse the skid to see what's in there for room, but I'll bet you I don't have 2-1/2" in the back!
Nikolai
My issue wasn't ballooning. My track was smacking the header/exhaust when the skid would collapse and no longer had track tension. I hadn't done damage yet but it was only a matter of time. I don't have an M sled to measure but they have to sit at least a couple inches lower at the belly pan.
Our setups look identical to me except your front arm is a little higher. Other wise the rear scissor, lower shock linkage angle, ect. all look the same. Before I took my picture I sat on the sled and then hopped off. I assume you did the same thing? What do you weight? I'm about 185 lbs dressed. One thing I would like to try is a longer front track shock. I think a +1" shock would allow the front arm to move back up but still keep some pressure on the front of the rails. Someone on Snowest used a longer Firecat shock and was happy with the results.
Off Trail Mike
Caleb: Yep, I got on and off the sled...and I'm 205 lbs dressed.
You're running the 12-1/2" XF shock and not the 11-1/4" M front shock right? Thought I'd throw it out there, as this would make a really big difference, but I don't even think the 11-1/4" will fit the 141 rails. It would be worth trying the longer shock up front, should help put more pressure on the front of the skid too.
So here's the pick of the 141 rails up to the 153, and their identical except for difference. The approach angle is steeper on the 141 by maybe 5-7 degrees. Its not too noticable in the picture but look just back of the antistab. With a steeper approach, your front holes should be lower in your tunnel and slightly ahead.
Are you finding that you have too much weight on the skis or just an issue of track tension?
Nikolai
The only issue I've had is track tension. My skid should have the 11 1/4" shock but I'll double check after after work tonight.
beeze455
The below picture is my skid setup with the shaft out waiting for extros. With my standard drivers it ratcheted on throttle. I put the extros on and it stopped ratcheting, but made a noise when slowing down. Rode it and it started ratcheting when I hit a hard bump and pushed the throttle. Then it started to do it when I climbed hills.
said screw it and tightened it up on the side of the trail. Gotta see how tight it is, but it is tight. No more noise on slow down or ratcheting.
hugger70mtnmax
My issues I was having with the track loosening was when the rear suspension would compress a lot. The worst times were when cresting a hill with a bump at the top where I could feel the skid compress. I have not had the same issues with the track tighter.
It would be interesting to poke around on the cat forums a little to see if they have this problem at all.
Nikolai
TY 4 Stroke God
So what are you guys running for track tension? I think it would be interesting to compare with so many of us running AC Float skids.
Please state:
- skid length
- track length
- tension and how it was measured
I will measure mine as soon as I get a chance.
Please state:
- skid length
- track length
- tension and how it was measured
I will measure mine as soon as I get a chance.
Great thread Caleb!
Even though I have moved on to different skids I'll continue to try to help with what I learned about cat skids the past couple years. They are great skids, I don't really have a firm reason to have gone away from them. Maybe I just get bored.
Even though I have moved on to different skids I'll continue to try to help with what I learned about cat skids the past couple years. They are great skids, I don't really have a firm reason to have gone away from them. Maybe I just get bored.
loudelectronics
TY 4 Stroke Guru
Why would you want to go to a cat skid? Isnt the new se skid close to the same? Why not go to a mtn tamer instead?
Cost is the biggest reason, mt tamer is 2k plus, cat skid is 600.
Yes the design is similar but the weight and strength of the cat is much better. Most people doing the cat swap are doing it on sleds that did not come with the se skid as well.
Cat skids perform well, weights are low 40 lbs and cheap.
Yes the design is similar but the weight and strength of the cat is much better. Most people doing the cat swap are doing it on sleds that did not come with the se skid as well.
Cat skids perform well, weights are low 40 lbs and cheap.
loudelectronics
TY 4 Stroke Guru
What does the se skid weigh?
Nikolai
TY 4 Stroke God
The skids stock are about 45 lbs. Removing idler wheels will knock a few more pounds off. With DBX arms you could see 36-41 lbs depending on length. Like Rick said, most people swap in cat skids because it's an affordable upgrade that drops over 25 lbs. They perform good, are very durable, and still relatively lightweight.
I have a 2010 Float skid on 141 Crossfire rails
144 camo extreme track
With no weight on the track I have a 1/4" between the track clip and hifax at the lowest point.
I have a 2010 Float skid on 141 Crossfire rails
144 camo extreme track
With no weight on the track I have a 1/4" between the track clip and hifax at the lowest point.
hugger70mtnmax
Expert
There must be something about your setup whether it be the short skid or your particular positioning that is causing the issue.
I wonder if it could be that one of the springs either middle or rear is compressing at a different rate and putting the skid at a weird angle that is making the skid not slide back and take up the slack in the track as it compresses???
I wonder if it could be that one of the springs either middle or rear is compressing at a different rate and putting the skid at a weird angle that is making the skid not slide back and take up the slack in the track as it compresses???
beeze455
Expert
My Setup. I had stock drivers but anytime I hit the throttle it ratcheted. I had the track really tight then. I installed extros and moved my rear skid mount.
It stopped ratcheting, but slowing down had some sort of rubbing noise. Rode it, but halfway through the day it started ratcheting. I cranked my rear shock up to 150psi and tightened the track to where it is now. The front shock was always set to only show 5 threads.
This setup is not ratcheting, but the track is tight. I may try to loosen it a tad. I may not being that it works and it is a new track that will most likely stretch a tad.
Here are my measurements. Dropped front 1.5" and back 1.5". Center to center on the mounting points is 31".
Tension. No space with only gravitiy. I did have it at 1.5", but that ratcheted even with extros in certain spots.
Tension with a 10lb weight is .5"
It stopped ratcheting, but slowing down had some sort of rubbing noise. Rode it, but halfway through the day it started ratcheting. I cranked my rear shock up to 150psi and tightened the track to where it is now. The front shock was always set to only show 5 threads.
This setup is not ratcheting, but the track is tight. I may try to loosen it a tad. I may not being that it works and it is a new track that will most likely stretch a tad.
Here are my measurements. Dropped front 1.5" and back 1.5". Center to center on the mounting points is 31".
Tension. No space with only gravitiy. I did have it at 1.5", but that ratcheted even with extros in certain spots.
Tension with a 10lb weight is .5"
Nikolai
TY 4 Stroke God
So the Ti. springs I was running were too soft. I'm putting my 160 lb Z-broz back on the track shock and a stiffer Ti. on the Ohlins. So far I really like it but I'll report back this weekend after a ride with the new springs installed.
I am now not recommending the BDX 2-wheel kit either as mine is bent. I will be putting the heavier stock shaft in.
I am now not recommending the BDX 2-wheel kit either as mine is bent. I will be putting the heavier stock shaft in.
Nikolai said:
I was wondering about that, bummer. It's a cool idea if it's tough enough, but I have never had a BDX part hold up. I've got some 7075 round stock left, we can make one that will hold up
I've bent two stock cross shafts as well.
beeze455
Expert
I just cut the stock shaft, drilled and tapped the holes. Flip the hardware to the inside and cut the bolts for crossfire skid. Find some washers and bolt her up. Price is right too.
Off Trail Mike
Gone Riding!
Nikolai said:
Off Trail Mike
Gone Riding!
beeze455 said:
Beeze, do you have a part no for the ice scratchers? They look CAT, but not sure. I have Yami ones, but it looks a royal PITA to get them installed.
OTM
