XS 825 Belt

[Big_Phil]

Well I only got about 700kms on my first XS belt before I snapped it in half, quite similar to the way I snapped the 8DN.
I was running hard when I blew the XS, a pack of Polaris sleds trying to hang with me on the local trails. It was a cold night, and I immediately put my hand on the primary, it was warm, not hot. When I snapped these belts, it was while accelerating, not at top speed. Given that the clutch wasn't hot, I don't think it is slipping the belt, I'm leaning towards too much pinch. Using the stock helix, thinking about a straight 39.
By no means do I want this to be taken as complaining. I usually get about 1000kms on a belt and these belts are not as expensive as other brands. These Winders are very powerful and very fast.
I have a neighbour with an 850 Doo that has blown 8 belts in less than 2500 miles.

I was snapping and delaminating belts every 500kms with the stock helix as well. Clutchmaster recommended I try an 41-37 helix, and my belt life greatly improved, but RPM was dropping 200ish on a longer pull. I have a 43-35 in there now, RPMs perfect and I have 2600kms on an xs825 and it looks perfect. Clutch faces are clean as well. I don't think you have too much pinch. I run heavier weights and stiff springs. I feel if you drive aggressively and snap a belt, you need a stiff secondary spring to get this secondary clutch to backshift properly. This is better belt life than my 12psi Nytro used to get.

 

[WinterWolf]

I am going to try my stock secondary and 35 degree, B/O spring with my 270 SMT, I am going to start at 90 degrees of wrap and see if it slips.

You’re Pro 4 is such a better clutch period... I don’t see how that stocker could work better than your pro 4, once you get it set up right for you? Why not try that B/O and straight 35 in the pro 4 first?

 

[74Nitro]

I was snapping and delaminating belts every 500kms with the stock helix as well. Clutchmaster recommended I try an 41-37 helix, and my belt life greatly improved, but RPM was dropping 200ish on a longer pull. I have a 43-35 in there now, RPMs perfect and I have 2600kms on an xs825 and it looks perfect. Clutch faces are clean as well. I don't think you have too much pinch. I run heavier weights and stiff springs. I feel if you drive aggressively and snap a belt, you need a stiff secondary spring to get this secondary clutch to backshift properly. This is better belt life than my 12psi Nytro used to get.

I always considered myself lucky to get 3000kms out of a belt on the 170HP nytro I used to own.

 

[STAIN]

You’re Pro 4 is such a better clutch period... I don’t see how that stocker could work better than your pro 4, once you get it set up right for you? Why not try that B/O and straight 35 in the pro 4 first?

I am not going to continue to buy parts for it yet. I will try the stocker to see how it reacts first. I don’t see the pro-4 as a big upgrade over the stock secondary as of yet. The only advantage so far is the price of the tuning parts.

 

[WinterWolf]

I am not going to continue to buy parts for it yet. I will try the stocker to see how it reacts first. I don’t see the pro-4 as a big upgrade over the stock secondary as of yet. The only advantage so far is the price of the tuning parts.

My only point is..why not try that set up on your Pro 4 first?

To each their own obviously...

 

[STAIN]

My only point is..why not try that set up on your Pro 4 first?

To each their own obviously...

The helix does NOT interchange..................I would have to buy another helix at XX$$ without knowing if it what i need.
you CAN interchange the springs although the tabs are indexed differently
If Knapp is using a stock secondary on his with a straight 35 with a 290 tune then i figured i would give it a shot.

This is my Pro-4 with a 43-32 helix, white spring(98-165) in the 4 hole to the right(tight). Broken in XS 825. SMT set at 270. TAPP primary with +1 rollers short bolts, no washers, As light as I can be with the +1 rollers!!!!!

HORRIBLE slip!!!! How tight does the secondary need to be to stop this slippage??!!I dont want to have to go to the 120-180 Spring to make this work.
Thats why I am going to try my stock secondary......

 

[WinterWolf]

I understand. Let us know what you think. After a while the money becomes an issue..I get it.

 

[STAIN]

Its not so much the money, I have pissed more money away on sleds than I care to think about. It's the frustration. Cant get that secondary to properly grip the belt. Feel like I am missing something or overlooking something simple. I have never had a slipping problem like this before in any other secondary I have ever tuned that I couldn't cure with a few simple adjustments.
I am no expert, but have been doing this for a couple of decades now and this one has got me frustrated.

 

[WinterWolf]

I have the Dalton black/purple spring, and before I tightened mine up one notch as you did, mine wasn’t slipping no where near as bad as what yours is showing.

Is my Dalton black/purple heavier than your white spring? I have a feeling it might be??

 

[KnappAttack]

The helix does NOT interchange..................I would have to buy another helix at XX$$ without knowing if it what i need.
you CAN interchange the springs although the tabs are indexed differently
If Knapp is using a stock secondary on his with a straight 35 with a 290 tune then i figured i would give it a shot.

This is my Pro-4 with a 43-32 helix, white spring(98-165) in the 4 hole to the right(tight). Broken in XS 825. SMT set at 270. TAPP primary with +1 rollers short bolts, no washers, As light as I can be with the +1 rollers!!!!!

HORRIBLE slip!!!! How tight does the secondary need to be to stop this slippage??!!I dont want to have to go to the 120-180 Spring to make this work.
Thats why I am going to try my stock secondary......

That is not a happy setup! That is just too much pinch and heat buildup rearing its ugly head.

I too ran heavy setups in the past with the Winder primary and could find no consistency, but now that I'm using the RX-1 primary, the sled is perfectly happy using the stock yellow or the lighter finish Dalton B/O. I do like to crank that B/O up to around 90* however to get it close to the finish of the stock yellow Winder spring.

I believe the binding Winder primary was to blame for the need of the heavier secondary springs and heavy primary weight. Now I have the RX-1 clutch on that does not bind, I have no need for the much heavier secondary springs and massive weight in the primary. I can even run the 8JP again without blowing it up!

Put the stock secondary on with the stock 35 helix, the Dalton B/O at 90* or the Dalton tan at 50* and you will be much happier. Set the primary to work with either of those and it will be happy.

Honestly, there is no need for a pro4 or different secondary at all, it's not going to do anything better than the stock secondary does. The primary, now that's a different story. The winder primary should be recalled and the old Yamaha primary put on in it's place. It is a weak and inferior piece!

 

[STAIN]

Is my Dalton black/purple heavier than your white spring?

Yes. It is the heaviest spring Dalton makes for that application. I have a similar spring, a Bikeman orange, that is very slightly heavier that I have been avoiding. I may just have to run that spring to get the balance I need.
OR I buy the stock size rollers (lightest) and go lighter on the secondary as well. The only problem I see there is not only do the stock size rollers remove weight from the primary but they also change the shift characteristics of the TAPP clutch.

 

[KnappAttack]

I have the Dalton black/purple spring, and before I tightened mine up one notch as you did, mine wasn’t slipping no where near as bad as what yours is showing.

Is my Dalton black/purple heavier than your white spring? I have a feeling it might be??

The black/purple is a step above the White, but the white can easily match it by simply cranking up 10* wrap more is all on the white. Put in in a drill press scale and you will see how spot on the numbers really are.

 

[STAIN]

Mike, I am using the TAPP primary. I have removed a bunch of weight from where it was when I got it, but not full light. I have one more roller size to go. I am happy with how this clutch preforms, especially at low end.
Do you believe what I am seeing is SLIP or heat and smear from too much spring pressure? At no point when I stop is the secondary so hot that i cant lay my hand on it.

 

[KnappAttack]

Mike, I am using the TAPP primary. I have removed a bunch of weight from where it was when I got it, but not full light. I have one more roller size to go. I am happy with how this clutch preforms, especially at low end.
Do you believe what I am seeing is SLIP or heat and smear from too much spring pressure? At no point when I stop is the secondary so hot that i cant lay my hand on it.

The secondary is only going to slip in high gear. What I see in that pic is belt transfer from just pinching too hard on a soft belt there. I'm guessing a warm day too? May work on the 8DN, but the XS belt isn't happy at all with that setup! You might be happy with it but that belt isn't! It won't last that way and you are giving up performance.

There is no way a belt is going to actually slip and leave marks like that in the lower ratios. It's working on a huge surface area! That is a real unhappy clutch setup. That in the pic is heat transfer of belt to the sheaves. Does the outer sheave look that bad too? I'm going to guess not quite that bad, the outer usually runs much cooler than the inner sheaves, primary and secondary.

Put the stock secondary on with the 35 and the B/O wrapped to 90* and tune the primary on the XS belt, if that still transfers black, try the 8JP and then the 8DN. Report back your results.

 

[STAIN]

Thanks. I began to wonder if that was from too much belt squeeze. Never experienced that before....
Hopefully I can try some set ups this weekend.