XS 825 Belt

[Turboflash]

With regards to primary bolt torque - Cat spec is torque to 51 ft lbs. Run engine 5-10 minutes, re-torque to 51 ft.lbs. No spec shows torque to 100 ft.lbs. and re-torque to 48 or whatever Yamaha shows. Is stub different? IDK. Why would it be necessary to torque Winder primary that tight but not the Cat primary on same engine?

 

[sideshowBob]

With regards to primary bolt torque - Cat spec is torque to 51 ft lbs. Run engine 5-10 minutes, re-torque to 51 ft.lbs. No spec shows torque to 100 ft.lbs. and re-torque to 48 or whatever Yamaha shows. Is stub different? IDK. Why would it be necessary to torque Winder primary that tight but not the Cat primary on same engine?

That is interesting as the stub shafts are the same on the Cat and Yamaha 998s.
I wonder what Mike is torqueing the Rx1 clutch to on his Winder?

 

[Big_Phil]

the sidewinder clutch is much beefier than the older clutch. Keep an eye out for cracks in the spider running high power for some miles on the older clutches. Apex had a clutch speed of 8300 rpm I believe, and many are pushing sidewinders to at least 9k

 

[KnappAttack]

With regards to primary bolt torque - Cat spec is torque to 51 ft lbs. Run engine 5-10 minutes, re-torque to 51 ft.lbs. No spec shows torque to 100 ft.lbs. and re-torque to 48 or whatever Yamaha shows. Is stub different? IDK. Why would it be necessary to torque Winder primary that tight but not the Cat primary on same engine?

I made the mistake once of torquing the Cat team twice rather than once and bent the puller trying to get it off too!

The winder gets torqued once is all, then backed off and set to 43 foot lbs. Running the engine Cats way and retorquing really sets the clutch on there. Just a different way of doing it.

When torquing the Winder primary down, you'd swear the bolts going to break! IMO the China shaft is stretching and made of butter. When torquing the old RX-1 clutch down to 108 it tightens up right away and you don't get the feeling that the shaft is made of butter and the bolt is going to break.

Probably the same China company making the Winder posts for the clutch that made the 2016 Viper 1050 rods that were not heat treated!

 

[sideshowBob]

View attachment 153505
the sidewinder clutch is much beefier than the older clutch. Keep an eye out for cracks in the spider running high power for some miles on the older clutches. Apex had a clutch speed of 8300 rpm I believe, and many are pushing sidewinders to at least 9k

the reduction ratio on an Apex engine is 1.233 : 1
11000 rpm engine speed on an Apex is 8900 RPM at the clutch, 10400 engine rpm is 8400 rpm at the clutch

 

[SideHogger]

Ok, back on point with this post. Does anyone have any idea what temp a belt is capable of reaching without blowing? What is the hottest temp they should approach? Maybe more of a question for the belt manufactures? I'm sure somebody on here knows.

 

[KnappAttack]

View attachment 153505
the sidewinder clutch is much beefier than the older clutch. Keep an eye out for cracks in the spider running high power for some miles on the older clutches. Apex had a clutch speed of 8300 rpm I believe, and many are pushing sidewinders to at least 9k

10,900 on the Apex is 8900 clutch speed, which is where they ran for RPM.

You'd think the Winder would be a beefier unit looking at it, but it's proven to be a real POS. Eats rollers for breakfast along with belts when you wick these winders up. So far, the old clutch is proving to be superior in every way in my machine and my buddies that would take out rollers every week on the Winder primary. I only got about 1,250 miles this season due to pissing with the winder primary for one week and due to mother nature being so cruel, so next year will tell the tale. But I can even run the 8JP now with the RX-1 primary without blowing it, I couldn't do that with Winder primary!

 

[sideshowBob]

Anything over 200F sustained is too hot. After the belt has reached 225F its time to replace the belt and correct issues that are causing such high belt temps.

 

[Turboflash]

When I talked to Dayco, Gates, and Timken (previously Carlisle) engineers about 2 years ago (when I installed my Razorback IR belt temp gage) they all told me that past 200 degF is death. Technically, they said the bonding agents in the belt and the rubber can withstand 225 but north of 200 there is already degradation of the physical strength of the belt.
That said, IMO if your clutch setup generates temps even close to that, I would say something is not right.
As KA has found out (and me w XS827) in his testing of the XS825 belt for example, we can get by w lower spring pressures (less pinch) and not have slip, and increased efficiency with XS belt. That means lower belt temps and better belt life. Belt is happier.
I run a 320 tune and with back-to-back WOT runs (3/4 mile) I see IR belt temps around 175 max. Normal high-performance trail riding, railroad grades, etc, I see 150-160. So, IMO again if people are seeing 200 something should be looked at.

 

[SideHogger]

Anything over 200F sustained is too hot. After the belt has reached 225F its time to replace the belt and correct issues that are causing such high belt temps.

So, is this personal results or manufacturers recommendations? Not trying to be a prick, just need the facts so I can test out my new laser temp gun and see temps I'm actually running instead of guessing with the old, " I can hold my hand on them and they are not too hot!", results.

 

[sideshowBob]

So, is this personal results or manufacturers recommendations? Not trying to be a prick, just need the facts so I can test out my new laser temp gun and see temps I'm actually running instead of guessing with the old, " I can hold my hand on them and they are not too hot!", results.

This is recommendations on Razor belt temp readouts and real life experience.
I read an analogy somewhere[maybe on this forum] that after 225F the belt material molecules "quit holding hands" and never do again so its time to toss the belt.
On my razor IR temp gage I normally see 120-140F belt temps in normal riding conditions that rises to 170-180F when running very high speed long distant runs. I have only seen 200F after a 30 mile rail bed extreme high speed run and that was after shutting down.
This is all with an 8DN belt.

 

[Turboflash]

I got my info from engineers at the belt companies.

 

[Big_Phil]

10,900 on the Apex is 8900 clutch speed, which is where they ran for RPM.

You'd think the Winder would be a beefier unit looking at it, but it's proven to be a real POS. Eats rollers for breakfast along with belts when you wick these winders up. So far, the old clutch is proving to be superior in every way in my machine and my buddies that would take out rollers every week on the Winder primary. I only got about 1,250 miles this season due to pissing with the winder primary for one week and due to mother nature being so cruel, so next year will tell the tale. But I can even run the 8JP now with the RX-1 primary without blowing it, I couldn't do that with Winder primary!

Definitely a quality control issue with the winder clutches. The castings don't like they are finished as nicely on the winder clutches compared to the older ones.

 

[Turboflash]

Cheaper Chinese junk, same as every sled manufacturer. I wouldn't care if the finishing wasn't as "nice" but I certainly do care about the metal and methods used to make them. That's where we're screwed. Cheaper grades of aluminum, cheaper methods of casting, etc, etc.

 

[Big_Phil]

Cheaper Chinese junk, same as every sled manufacturer. I wouldn't care if the finishing wasn't as "nice" but I certainly do care about the metal and methods used to make them. That's where we're screwed. Cheaper grades of aluminum, cheaper methods of casting, etc, etc.

My thoughts are if the casting finish isn’t nice, some other corners we cut during manufacturing as well. Some extra chinesium alloy used.