2020 Front end

[snowfever27]

Gentlemen, I read this whole post and only saw one actual feedback post for a ride review. But it was a first ride / one ride review. How did the conversion work? Was it worth the $$$? Did the guys that did the conversion do rails as well? Or just the front end? I have a 2015, is this upgrade worth the time and money? Buying a new 2020 isn’t an option for me, I’m going to ride my 2015 for another 3-5 years. Any real world, unbiased feedback would be great.

 

[putz21]

I did both the new ARCS front end as well as the new rails, limiter strap, bumper stop and upper idler wheels that all changed for 2020.

Absolutely love the handling of the sled. The front end was always very good IMHO, so the changes for 2020 raised the bar a bit more in terms of handling with flatter cornering, and very stable through high speed bumps.

I jumped on my bro's 2020 Ski-doo 900T quite a few times this winter and couldn't believe the difference in front-end, with my Sidewinder much, much better.

In terms of is it worth it to make the upgrade and purchase all the various parts??? Maybe. For me, I am happy that I did it as I always like to upgrade and buy new parts every year to tinker around a bit. For others, the cost may not be worth it. If you plan on holding on to the sled for a few more years and have the extra cash laying around, then I would say yeah, do it.

For me, with or without the new front-end, I absolutely love this sled!!!

 

[waldo1]

i changed spindles and upper arms only on a 17 xtx - was worried about the skid needing upgrades also but to my surprise, it launched better, dosent raise the skiis so much, its faster in a race because of that, and does everything else on trail and off trail, better... nice upgrade for sure!

 

[jetpilot785]

I recently converted my 2019 ZR7000 Limited to all the 2020 specs and now have just over 1000 miles on the setup. I also have a second identical 2019 ZR7000 Limited still in the stock trim which will also now get the 2020 spec upgrades if that any indication of the last 1000 miles. Before i get into the nitty gritty, I just wanted to make sure people were aware that cat changed the ergos in 19 to what the new 2020 vipers are minus the ARS 2 front end which to convert requires only the spindle and upper arm on both sides. There is also an updated bushing and bolt for the upper arm which is made of an oil impregnated material vs the plated steel bushing that would corrode after awhile but the old bushing and hardware will work if cost is an issue. I did notice the new bolt and nut are smaller in diameter so may be easier to bend with some hard hits but i wasn't too worried about it as most likely other stuff will bend or break if the bolts get enough of a hit to bend them. Another thing the 2019 cat version did get in 19 was the newer rails as i compared those to the new 2020 yamahas at a local dealer so i didn't have to change them out. Another thing I will mention is I am running QS3R's all around and the new center shock is longer to compensate for the updated geometry and new longer limiter straps. I did some research and found out that they do not offer a QS3 clicker shock on the 2020's and that included the RR and I wanted to keep my QS3R's all around. In order to safely do that, you have to run the new limiter in the shortest hole to allow the strp to be the stop vs the piston head bottoming at full rebound. Even in this configuration, that last hole is still about a hole longer than the original strap at its longest setting so you are getting the absolute maximum stroke out of the older center shock dimension. What this does is reduces the on power push when mid corner to corner exit. Some early reports from guys on the cat forums was that they thought the older setup was better but they didn't realize or care to change the limiter setting as they come at full extension with the new longer shock for max transfer so i could see their complaint. I happen to get a bonus as I usually always pulled my limiters down a hole or 2 to reduce transfer for more on power steering and ski pressure in corners. Another bonus is the increased travel in the rear skid with being able to utilize the extra shaft travel the old setup didnt allow so with my shocks being revalved for small bump compliance but high speed dampening also increased< it had more time to pack and reduce bottoming so i ran my clickers in position 1 on the new setup which I never did before as they would bottom before the high speed dampening could do enough so I would run in position 2 or 3 mostly and sacrafice small bump compliance for big bump compliance so the update is worth it for the added benefit you will get in the rear suspension.

As far as the front, i didn't notice a ton of difference to be honest. It seemed to corner a little flatter and not have as much body roll but I could manipulate that with front shock compression and rebound settings so in position 1 it would roll and understeer more than I would like, a little improvement in position 2 and it would be on rails with almost zero understeer on power or off in position 3 which was the same thing the stock 19 was doing as well so not that big of a difference up front but the added ground clearance up front and the rear suspension benefits i mentioned earlier make this cheap update well worth it.

 

[Richard Hodgins]

Are you sure about the 19 rails being the same? Maybe its just vipers/zr7000?
Besides the mounting location of the center shock, longer limiter strap , there was the initial curve that changed from my understanding. Other people have posted this as well.
19 is first year for new rear 3 wheel so maybe thats where the confusion is?
Also, someone else confirmed that the shock stroke for center was the same despite the part number being updated.

Really confused now! I have a 19XF cross country 9000 and was convinced I needed new rails as well.

 

[jetpilot785]

Are you sure about the 19 rails being the same? Maybe its just vipers/zr7000?
Besides the mounting location of the center shock, longer limiter strap , there was the initial curve that changed from my understanding. Other people have posted this as well.
19 is first year for new rear 3 wheel so maybe thats where the confusion is?
Also, someone else confirmed that the shock stroke for center was the same despite the part number being updated.

Really confused now! I have a 19XF cross country 9000 and was convinced I needed new rails as well.

I'm not 100% sure the rails are identical but from what I could see visually between 2020 cats and yamahas in the showroom with mine parked right outside, the rails appear to be very close but i don't have 2 rails to lay over the top of each to compare angles or part numbers as i don't see any black rails on any 2020's that I can compare to my 19. I see the part numbers on the few that are available to look at are different part numbers due to different colors. The thundercats are gold, the 6000 series are white from what ive seen so far and mine are black so its hard to compare part numbers of different colors. The whole new idler and rear wheel theory may hold some water so maybe most of the 19's have the rails already or maybe the rails are still the same with just different wheel kits on them. I think the 19 and up rails might be slightly different as i ordered 4th wheel kits from J&T and they had a new set of 8" wheels with different mounts than the 8.4" stealth kits he offers for 18 and older models. Maybe someone has concrete evidence of the rails actually having different angles on the rail tips or anywhere else on them that would make them different enough to justify new rails but the rails I have look and work well with no side effects I've seen so far so how much different will they be? I look at it the same way everyone thought the 2020 viper airbox was different and was some new ram air design when in fact it's the same old design they had since 2014 but everyone swore it was different but i had my 7000 with the new plastics before the viper was released and it is identical to my 14 viper so so much for that theory so unless someone can actually show physical evidence of any major changes made, it's all just speculation.

As far as the shock on the new ones, the body may be longer if the stroke is the same but the center to center is definitely longer as the 19 and older center shock bottom out in the body before the limiter get taunt in hole 1 or 2 which renders them useless and the 2020's I saw the straps were taunt and they were all set in the first hole of the new limiter so i'm not sure where the change was made as far as longer body, longer shaft, a little bit of both or what but they are for sure different center to center measurements.

One other thing i did catch a short time ago is they switched back over to the larger bogie wheels on the upper arm that were on the 129" skids in 2017. The 137" skids used a smaller upper bogie but the new 2020 137" specs call for the larger wheel now. I ran mine with the smaller wheel with no bad side affects but i will switch those upper wheels out to the larger ones. I also looked at the part numbers one by one and they are all identical on the 137" skids when comparing 2019 to 2020 other than the rails (which do look a little different towards the tips so you may be right about the rail tips being a different angle or slightly longer etc) but other than the upper bogies, upper coupler block bolts and limiter straps, all the rest of the part numbers are identical so not alot to buy if you want to convert. I'm still curious about the rails myself but I would like to see confirmation of that before I would invest in new rails when they may or may not be needed to get most if not all of the benefits of the switch.

 

[putz21]

On page 6 of this thread I have pictures of my 2019 and 2020 rails. You can see the difference in geometry between the two. The geometry changes effect he front arm mounting position and angle.

My Elka’s measure 12.45” center to Center and I am able to run with the limiter straps all the way out on the last hole.

I believe someone confirmed the center to Center OEM shock measured 12.5” on a the 2020. I am not sure what they measure for all previous years.

 

[Richard Hodgins]

Thanks for confirming! SO I will order rails too along with all the other parts. They are reasonable on Babbitts, $135 a piece for new rails. Mine are getting banged up anyway.

 

[jetpilot785]

On page 6 of this thread I have pictures of my 2019 and 2020 rails. You can see the difference in geometry between the two. The geometry changes effect he front arm mounting position and angle.

My Elka’s measure 12.45” center to Center and I am able to run with the limiter straps all the way out on the last hole.

I believe someone confirmed the center to Center OEM shock measured 12.5” on a the 2020. I am not sure what they measure for all previous years.

I didn’t read the entire thread and see your pics as the one guy on the last page said no one really offered any real riding opinions so I just posted based on my experience with it so far and while not a 100% complete transition, I felt it was close enough to get a good idea of what it would do.

As far as the rail differences, while the center shock may remain the same specs as previous years, by having less of an angle on the rail tips, it pushes the arm further away from the rail tip and that would explain the longer straps and thicker bump stop. One thing it would do as well is cause the suspension to sit flat sooner giving more distance between the scissor and stop allowing more transfer and if you like a lot of transfer and understeer power, then the updated rails may work better for someone. But someone like me who hates understeer on power and usually pulls the straps down to put the scissor close to the transfer blocks to reduce transfer and increase ski pressure on power, maybe sticking with the 19 and older rails may benefit me more as the new strap has to stay in the 3rd hole to have the straps act as a stop keeping the shock from bottoming out on itself. It does a couple of things that I’ve seen so far, first it gives the center shock more travel utilizing more shaft travel in the bumps as the shock is only a couple mm from being fully extended in the rest position and 2, because of the rails on the pre 20 rails are more aggressive up front, the scissors have to travel further back before the rails sit flat putting the scissor a lot closer to the blocks to reduce transfer of that’s what you desire. I’m sure you can pull the straps down on the 20’s to get the same effect but you may be losing center shock travel to do the same thing I can do now with the pre 20 rails. This isn’t confirmed so don’t take it as gospel but after looking at your pics and seeing where things lined up, that’s my guess as to what they did and how it may affect the ride whether you stick with the older rails or get the new ones. I may order a set and try it for my own curiosity but so far, my 95% converted sleds feels way better in the rear for sure. Did you convert your upper idlers to the larger wheels that typically came on the 129 skids?

 

[KnappAttack]

So near as I can tell, the front end sits 1.5" higher, AND it's all below the bottom of the front A arm on the front end. Forget about the rear suspension I don't care about that.

Someone tell me how raising the front of the sled 1.5" is going to make it handle flatter. Usually, you would lower the front end by LOWERING the front end 1.5" to make it handle flatter! Its going to tip, pivot around and lift a ski on the carbide that's on the skis in an outside of the corner. If you raise the sled up, it rides on a higher center of gravity and becomes more prone to lift a ski in a corner!

The mounting points are all the same, yet the word is the roll center is changed. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how raising the sled 1.5" changes the roll center and makes it handle flatter. What am I missing? Cat used to sell shorter spindles to make them handle flatter with a lower center of gravity, now they want to sell us longer spindles and tell us they handle flatter?

I, like everyone else, would like a sled that handles even flatter, but my ski-doo buddies are already trailing far behind and I have to wait for them forever. Funny, how they now admit they can see how I have a much easier time than them keeping the skis down and railing trails in the twisties, while I just ride nice and easy, they are working hard and pushing it hard just trying to keep up, and they are bragging about how much lighter they are! LOL! If you read their posts on DooTalk you would think they just murder the heavy weight SideWinder tubs in the twisties. Sure not the case from what I've seen, we wait quite some time for the Doo's to catch up so we can go again.

 

[putz21]

I didn’t read the entire thread and see your pics as the one guy on the last page said no one really offered any real riding opinions so I just posted based on my experience with it so far and while not a 100% complete transition, I felt it was close enough to get a good idea of what it would do.

As far as the rail differences, while the center shock may remain the same specs as previous years, by having less of an angle on the rail tips, it pushes the arm further away from the rail tip and that would explain the longer straps and thicker bump stop. One thing it would do as well is cause the suspension to sit flat sooner giving more distance between the scissor and stop allowing more transfer and if you like a lot of transfer and understeer power, then the updated rails may work better for someone. But someone like me who hates understeer on power and usually pulls the straps down to put the scissor close to the transfer blocks to reduce transfer and increase ski pressure on power, maybe sticking with the 19 and older rails may benefit me more as the new strap has to stay in the 3rd hole to have the straps act as a stop keeping the shock from bottoming out on itself. It does a couple of things that I’ve seen so far, first it gives the center shock more travel utilizing more shaft travel in the bumps as the shock is only a couple mm from being fully extended in the rest position and 2, because of the rails on the pre 20 rails are more aggressive up front, the scissors have to travel further back before the rails sit flat putting the scissor a lot closer to the blocks to reduce transfer of that’s what you desire. I’m sure you can pull the straps down on the 20’s to get the same effect but you may be losing center shock travel to do the same thing I can do now with the pre 20 rails. This isn’t confirmed so don’t take it as gospel but after looking at your pics and seeing where things lined up, that’s my guess as to what they did and how it may affect the ride whether you stick with the older rails or get the new ones. I may order a set and try it for my own curiosity but so far, my 95% converted sleds feels way better in the rear for sure. Did you convert your upper idlers to the larger wheels that typically came on the 129 skids?

Thanks for your feedback. I originally have the ‘19 upper idler wheels (smaller) on right now, but will be putting the larger ones on today before my trip this weekend.

 

[cannondale27]

So near as I can tell, the front end sits 1.5" higher, AND it's all below the bottom of the front A arm on the front end. Forget about the rear suspension I don't care about that.

Someone tell me how raising the front of the sled 1.5" is going to make it handle flatter. Usually, you would lower the front end by LOWERING the front end 1.5" to make it handle flatter! Its going to tip, pivot around and lift a ski on the carbide that's on the skis in an outside of the corner. If you raise the sled up, it rides on a higher center of gravity and becomes more prone to lift a ski in a corner!

The mounting points are all the same, yet the word is the roll center is changed. I'm just trying to wrap my head around how raising the sled 1.5" changes the roll center and makes it handle flatter. What am I missing? Cat used to sell shorter spindles to make them handle flatter with a lower center of gravity, now they want to sell us longer spindles and tell us they handle flatter?

I, like everyone else, would like a sled that handles even flatter, but my ski-doo buddies are already trailing far behind and I have to wait for them forever. Funny, how they now admit they can see how I have a much easier time than them keeping the skis down and railing trails in the twisties, while I just ride nice and easy, they are working hard and pushing it hard just trying to keep up, and they are bragging about how much lighter they are! LOL! If you read their posts on DooTalk you would think they just murder the heavy weight SideWinder tubs in the twisties. Sure not the case from what I've seen, we wait quite some time for the Doo's to catch up so we can go again.

Cat raised the front to look like a Doo and introduced the needed changes in skid to keep it from collapsing. They also put a 1” track and dual rate springs on the zr it’s going to be a wash or worse and that is what I found riding a 2020 ZR and watching from behind. Poor acceleration because of low traction and no gain in handling with 2020. On the shock end the complaints of overly stiff and bottoming since change have increased. I believe they went backwards from a 2019 SRX for sure. That’s the one to get if it only had qs3 r’s.

 

[KnappAttack]

Cat raised the front to look like a Doo and introduced the needed changes in skid to keep it from collapsing. They also put a 1” track and dual rate springs on the zr it’s going to be a wash or worse and that is what I found riding a 2020 ZR and watching from behind. Poor acceleration because of low traction and no gain in handling with 2020. On the shock end the complaints of overly stiff and bottoming since change have increased. I believe they went backwards from a 2019 SRX for sure. That’s the one to get if it only had qs3 r’s.

I'd understand if they made the spindles longer and then set it to ride in another 1.5" for flatter A-arms. That would make sense to me, but it does not appear that they did even that. Just raised the front by 1.5". How does that make for flatter cornering on a machine that sits 1.5" taller?

I've reduced the preload on my front ski springs to get the a-arms to lay flatter and provide a lower machine, flatter cornering and an improved ride. I'd invest in the new front end if anyone could provide me any possible reason that 1.5" taller spindles below the a-arm would possibly provide flatter cornering, because I'm all about flat cornering and handling.

 

[cannondale27]

Just get the srx or thundercat springs and adjust shocks to avoid bottoming and correct rebound

 

[Richard Hodgins]

Cat raised the front to look like a Doo and introduced the needed changes in skid to keep it from collapsing. They also put a 1” track and dual rate springs on the zr it’s going to be a wash or worse and that is what I found riding a 2020 ZR and watching from behind. Poor acceleration because of low traction and no gain in handling with 2020. On the shock end the complaints of overly stiff and bottoming since change have increased. I believe they went backwards from a 2019 SRX for sure. That’s the one to get if it only had qs3 r’s.

You are the only one that says they went backwards and handling got worse! I have not ridden one, but everyone else that has seems to say the opposite. Better turn in, flatter cornering, no ski lift. The new doo front end is similar (raised the front) and results are the same.
The 19 geometry isn't any different than previous models...
The sno cross race sleds had this mod before and it was an improvement too.