2022 Sidewinder ltx eps - getting rid of push

[sailor joe]

So basically I have learnt that the consensus is that any dual carbide will push no matter the ski, single carbides will get rid of push BUT they dart, and most people go for snowtrackers to get rid of push and dart. I have run trackers and hate them for my style of riding so that's not an option for me. I guess I'm a bit surprised nobody has found a better combo WITHOUT going to trackers?

I feel that I have had good handling (no push/no dart) in the past with some of my ski combos (either the 6.9s or the 5.7r) so will try these strykes one more time, if not I am switching skis.I have found good results with stud boy dueley's 6",they are not cheap at around $190/pair US

And to make it all the more complex, you really need to match up the carbide length to the amount of traction you have. Once you pick the right combination, its all still a compromise as conditions change

Some of the manufacturers have tried to split the difference between traditional carbides and the snowtracker.

Qualipieces has the Adventure

Bergstrom has the triple point plus ski saver

you just said it..."as conditions change" nothing is perfect for all conditions except operator adjusting to it. Lets hope Kuzzy is our last casualty and not fatality...keep it under 100 !!

 

[sailor joe]

you just said it..."as conditions change" nothing is perfect for all conditions except operator adjusting to it. Lets hope Kuzzy is our last casualty and not fatality...keep it under 100 !!

Mike, do yu have any experience with the setup I have on my STX GT,, that is the USIx3 with Studboy duelly's ? Just wondering, I spent a fortune for this setup and it words pretty good for me. I know there are a thousand variables with setting springs and such. Just wondering if paying some $700 was worth it...I have no choice at this point, I'm tapped out for spending on the sled for this year, my only move would be back to the Tuners which are not great.
BTW, you confused me the other day with the EPS as a game changer and then finding another setup that works pretty well without it. I'm not sure you are aware of this but you're one of a few guys on here that allot of us take your word as gospel...I do anyway, and thanks for sharing your knowledge and passion.
On another subject, is there anything I can do to my STX-Gt to perhaps get better fuel mileage? Joe

 

[KnappAttack]

Mike, do yu have any experience with the setup I have on my STX GT,, that is the USIx3 with Studboy duelly's ? Just wondering, I spent a fortune for this setup and it words pretty good for me. I know there are a thousand variables with setting springs and such. Just wondering if paying some $700 was worth it...I have no choice at this point, I'm tapped out for spending on the sled for this year, my only move would be back to the Tuners which are not great.
BTW, you confused me the other day with the EPS as a game changer and then finding another setup that works pretty well without it. I'm not sure you are aware of this but you're one of a few guys on here that allot of us take your word as gospel...I do anyway, and thanks for sharing your knowledge and passion.
On another subject, is there anything I can do to my STX-Gt to perhaps get better fuel mileage? Joe

Joe, I've never run the USI skis on the snow. I do however run the stud boy deuce bars for early-season riding on a set of Doo 6.9's I have here. I don't like how they dart and push, to help the darting with them I have added a set of Woodys navigators in front of the deuce which helps with the dirty along with the chunks of dirt we deal with on early season riding. As soon as the snow is good enough however I switch to the snow tractors on my 5.7Doo single keel race skis. The Deuce like its single carbide brother the Shaper provides long carbide and host bar longevity compared to other carbide runners. When the host bar starts to wear down in areas, I use hardweld in those areas to prolong the life like I do with all my carbide runners. The Stud Boy runners use is a great hi-quality of carbide that just lasts and lasts. Shapers are also great if you can put up with the Darting and tougher steering effort. The single shaper gores where pointed whereas the dual deuce version like to ride atop toe snow and push more.

I've always had my 17 LE sled setup for easy steering, handling and ride, and I've always said it steers easily with the BOP arms and Snowtrackers. I learned long ago on my Doos that Snowtrackers provide substantially easier steering along with no dart and goes were pointed. As you recall my review of the power steering I mentioned I was driving a client sled that had the tuners on it that stared like a tank. Power steering on the winder is a game changer in that you can run any ski in carbide and have that easy steering. Until then you can run the BOP mechanical arms and snow trackers and get that easy steering, I've been doing it for years.

Do you need power steering no, it is certainly however extremely nice to have. I like to ride very aggressive on groomed trails and am not sure that PS will help that. Where it shines is the slower going and tighter trails for sure. I'm not sure I'll even switch to the new SRX I have coming yet. I know its on the truck, but I do so love my 17 as its just perfectly setup and refined over the years to the point it's pure perfection right now. I just don't want to give up my 17 LE.

As for a fuel mileage, the key is to keep the RPMs down when you're just cruising, I do it by running the big tune and clutching for the big tune I have loaded in my sled, if we are just out trail riding, I can get better fuel mileage than anyone I ride with because of this.

 

[sailor joe]

Mike, do yu have any experience with the setup I have on my STX GT,, that is the USIx3 with Studboy duelly's ? Just wondering, I spent a fortune for this setup and it words pretty good for me. I know there are a thousand variables with setting springs and such. Just wondering if paying some $700 was worth it...I have no choice at this point, I'm tapped out for spending on the sled for this year, my only move would be back to the Tuners which are not great.
BTW, you confused me the other day with the EPS as a game changer and then finding another setup that works pretty well without it. I'm not sure you are aware of this but you're one of a few guys on here that allot of us take your word as gospel...I do anyway, and thanks for sharing your knowledge and passion.
On another subject, is there anything I can do to my STX-Gt to perhaps get better fuel mileage? Joe

Joe, I've never run the USI skis on the snow. I do however run the stud boy deuce bars for early-season riding on a set of Doo 6.9's I have here. I don't like how they dart and push, to help the darting with them I have added a set of Woodys navigators in front of the deuce which helps with the dirty along with the chunks of dirt we deal with on early season riding. As soon as the snow is good enough however I switch to the snow tractors on my 5.7Doo single keel race skis. The Deuce like its single carbide brother the Shaper provides long carbide and host bar longevity compared to other carbide runners. When the host bar starts to wear down in areas, I use hardweld in those areas to prolong the life like I do with all my carbide runners. The Stud Boy runners use is a great hi-quality of carbide that just lasts and lasts. Shapers are also great if you can put up with the Darting and tougher steering effort. The single shaper gores where pointed whereas the dual deuce version like to ride atop toe snow and push more.

I've always had my 17 LE sled setup for easy steering, handling and ride, and I've always said it steers easily with the BOP arms and Snowtrackers. I learned long ago on my Doos that Snowtrackers provide substantially easier steering along with no dart and goes were pointed. As you recall my review of the power steering I mentioned I was driving a client sled that had the tuners on it that stared like a tank. Power steering on the winder is a game changer in that you can run any ski in carbide and have that easy steering. Until then you can run the BOP mechanical arms and snow trackers and get that easy steering, I've been doing it for years.

Do you need power steering no, it is certainly however extremely nice to have. I like to ride very aggressive on groomed trails and am not sure that PS will help that. Where it shines is the slower going and tighter trails for sure. I'm not sure I'll even switch to the new SRX I have coming yet. I know its on the truck, but I do so love my 17 as its just perfectly setup and refined over the years to the point it's pure perfection right now. I just don't want to give up my 17 LE.

As for a fuel mileage, the key is to keep the RPMs down when you're just cruising, I do it by running the big tune and clutching for the big tune I have loaded in my sled, if we are just out trail riding, I can get better fuel mileage than anyone I ride with because of this.

Thanks Mike, when you say big tune I'm assuming the tune that has 3 phases 240/270/300 that is Hurricane I think for that tune. When you mention clutches, are you talking the Tapp clutch that runs $2300.00 I do have GSE EPS...works great except for when very slow to stopped and needs to be "reset" every now and then but that's no big deal. I do like the EPS, keep working even at high speeds which is nice.
I'm not a speed demon on the trails, generally run conservative at 40-55mph. I sometimes have the wife on the back and I have to take it easy and not make her feel uncomfortable but it would be nice to get a better gas mileage. The STX has a 13 gallon tank which helps. Joe

 

[Richard Hodgins]

Your best bet may be Woody Slim Jims on the tuners which are more aggressive and deeper than a dooly, but they are expensive, still push in aggressive riding and they don't last too long, but at least they don't dart.

I have every carbide brand under the sun tucked under my bench. They are all full of compromise in one way or the other. The one set of carbides that go where pointed, dont dart and steer easy, not to mention last a long time are the Aggressive Snowtrackers. The drawbacks, they push some in the soft snow when the temps are around freezing because they too can plug up. Rocks and chunks can get caught once in a while. When the correctors get worn down they steer hard and will want to dart on the hardback, correctors need replaced at that point.


Doo skis are nothing special without the Snowtrackers, I've run all the Doo skis and the twin keels like to push in the snow and the dual carbides on them will still hunt and dart around.

I'm not sure why you are against the trackers and there "not for your style". They work in slow going and when being pushed hard. I know Doo skis and the trackers will not be unstable as I've run that combo since forever on the winder. I have no experience yet with the Strike and Snowtrackers as my SRX is not here yet, but as soon as it comes in I plan to put trackers on it hands down. There is noting better out there than trackers that I hade tried. I've given up on the other carbides unless it for early season and dirt riding.

These Stryke skis are not like Tuners at all, so not sure the Stryke will respond the same with Slim Jims and dont have any interest in trying Tuners either.

I know this may be a hot topic, the snowtrackers, but I just find they are unpredictable and have ZERO give for any high speed or emergency maneuvers (IE getting air, skis land turning) or lifting a ski if coming into a corner too hot. I usually set up a sled to not lift skis on cornering, but if it does this by chance with a snowtracker, that sled is rolling! Happened to a buddy driving mine when I tried trackers for about 600kms.
Also, if you are riding SUPER aggressive, coming in to a corner at 80mph, hard corner, you want SOME push whereas trackers give you none, there is no margin of error and you will be on your side.
I've rode some well set up sleds with trackers and rode them fast but never pushed them hard because I know there is a limit. With a traditional ski and carbide, you can be super aggressive and always know there will be some give if you are coming into a corner too hot.
I know its sounds reckless to ride on the edge, but that's generally where I am and the trackers dont give me confidence to do that.
Also, to make the snowtracker case worse for me, rode a sled sled that went sideways in an icy parking lot with a throttle blip, it had trackers, they caught and threw me off the sled. Had a compound fracture in my shoulder. I did NOT know this sled had trackers, it was friend's sled that I was helping out with to clear out a 'bog' he was having in -40 temps....lost my whole season and my arm is not the same.

 

[twyztid]

Shapers work really well for steering, not good at all for darting and ease of steering.

They don't wear worth a #*$&@ either. The longest wearing carbides that I have found so far are Snow Studs brand.

 

[twyztid]

I have a 17 LTX SE so I don't have power steering but I am running 6" Arctic Cat Trail Skis with 8" Snow Studs Double Down carbides and Woody's Navigator plates installed. This setup steers easy and, while it DOES push at little in certain conditions when taking corners aggressively, it is controllable and I would rather have a little push than so much bite that the inside ski is lifting all the time. Also, I have 2000 miles on this set of Double Down carbides and they are showing very little wear (used in all conditions... good snow to low snow).

The Woody's Navigator plates really aren't necessary with the Double Down carbides but I transferred this set of skis from my Viper where I ran them with single carbides. The purpose of those plates is that they are supposed to help with darting (like the wide front of Qualipieces carbides). This did work pretty decent on the Viper but if the conditions were hard enough that the ski couldn't sink into the snow, there would still be some darting. I left them on the skis because they protect the front of the keel.

 

[Sevey]

I wouldnt waste time trying to work with Tuners on this Procross sled. It does not like a dual keel ski. Whereas the FX and Delta box sleds came to life with twin keels- this sled becomes almost erratic and a bit untameable.

I have been running C&A's which is an aggressive single keel ski:

Shapers-
With 6" shapers they carve and have tons of bite but the steering pressure is pretty crazy. At times the ski will load really bad and want to flip up (or highside). If the snow is hard they are pretty miserable, but in loose fluffy snow - they would feel pretty good.

Slim Jims-
The Slim Jim's are great compromise. They are like a Swiss Army Knife - they do it all, but dont really excell in any one area. Typically, the harder the snow - the better. Bar pressure is light, like 'power steering light'. In normal packed powder trails they will push (a bit) but like i stated earlier, it is so predictable you are never left hanging - the sled always comes around. In loose fresh snow or spring slop, they start to push and you will be forced off the throttle to ensure you make the corner. Not a big deal - if you are anticipating it.

Bergstrom Triple Points-
For a single rod the triples work really well on this sled. The bar pressure is not too bad, fairly light. They make the sled come around in all snow conditions. They dont handle as crisp in hard snow. BUt in soft fluff, or spring slush to cut through it quite well. Where the Slim Jims start pushing in those conditions, the Bergtraums still handle sharp.

That's my experience with single keel C&A's - xpt's.
MS

 

[WinderFab]

I

So basically I have learnt that the consensus is that any dual carbide will push no matter the ski, single carbides will get rid of push BUT they dart, and most people go for snowtrackers to get rid of push and dart. I have run trackers and hate them for my style of riding so that's not an option for me. I guess I'm a bit surprised nobody has found a better combo WITHOUT going to trackers?

I feel that I have had good handling (no push/no dart) in the past with some of my ski combos (either the 6.9s or the 5.7r) so will try these strykes one more time, if not I am switching skis.

Being on Yamaha’s since 95 I feel your pain, I have more skis laying around than I had sleds, believe me other sleds aren’t any better, they all push, dart and lift the skis in certain conditions, I’ll take being a little cautious running trackers than running another single carbide and dealing with all the negatives that come with them. But that’s me and we all have our preferences. I did hear good things about the slim Jim’s on cat skis but I also hear some say they will push if you push the sled aggressively.
I know it’s not something we should have to deal with but if you ever decide to get a pair of skis believe me try the command ski with any wear bar you like and you will be amazed how well they perform especially you having eps, without eps I wouldn’t recommend them. I had 6” carbide on mine and they tracked perfectly straight and steered perfectly through the corners when the sled was being ridden hard, good thing is most after market skis take the same carbide.

 

[earthling]

Your best bet may be Woody Slim Jims on the tuners which are more aggressive and deeper than a dooly, but they are expensive, still push in aggressive riding and they don't last too long, but at least they don't dart.

I have every carbide brand under the sun tucked under my bench. They are all full of compromise in one way or the other. The one set of carbides that go where pointed, dont dart and steer easy, not to mention last a long time are the Aggressive Snowtrackers. The drawbacks, they push some in the soft snow when the temps are around freezing because they too can plug up. Rocks and chunks can get caught once in a while. When the correctors get worn down they steer hard and will want to dart on the hardback, correctors need replaced at that point.


Doo skis are nothing special without the Snowtrackers, I've run all the Doo skis and the twin keels like to push in the snow and the dual carbides on them will still hunt and dart around.

I'm not sure why you are against the trackers and there "not for your style". They work in slow going and when being pushed hard. I know Doo skis and the trackers will not be unstable as I've run that combo since forever on the winder. I have no experience yet with the Strike and Snowtrackers as my SRX is not here yet, but as soon as it comes in I plan to put trackers on it hands down. There is noting better out there than trackers that I hade tried. I've given up on the other carbides unless it for early season and dirt riding.

What I didn't like about trackers, and still don't is that I prefer predictable and progressive push (understeer) vs oversteer which is almost never predictable and controlling it comes at greater expense of control and momentum. It comes from racing flat track, desert races, and SCCA where smooth = fast. Its also just easier to control push than oversteer, especially on corner entry through mid corner. When you get into trouble and you have a slight push, a slight correction of throttle will bring the vehicle back in line, this is fairly predictable. Its easier to ride the edge. When you have oversteer, it takes a lot more adjustment in throttle to recover in which case you have lost both control and momentum. This isn't a skill thing, its a fast line thing. For everything else I like trackers so maybe... likely, its just having to get used to the compromise. Trackers are better in many other conditions including in a straight line so...

 

[Yamascotty]

I’m running 8” Woodys Maverick single bars
Shaper style
Tallest bar on the market
Full length so good in loose snow vs shorter bars
Very good bite and virtually no darting
Only a little at off throttle when coming to a stop on tracked up trail

I found that the biggest thing is to always have at least a little throttle on and the bigger balls ya got...
Even better

 

[Richard Hodgins]

What I didn't like about trackers, and still don't is that I prefer predictable and progressive push (understeer) vs oversteer which is almost never predictable and controlling it comes at greater expense of control and momentum. It comes from racing flat track, desert races, and SCCA where smooth = fast. Its also just easier to control push than oversteer, especially on corner entry through mid corner. When you get into trouble and you have a slight push, a slight correction of throttle will bring the vehicle back in line, this is fairly predictable. Its easier to ride the edge. When you have oversteer, it takes a lot more adjustment in throttle to recover in which case you have lost both control and momentum. This isn't a skill thing, its a fast line thing. For everything else I like trackers so maybe... likely, its just having to get used to the compromise. Trackers are better in many other conditions including in a straight line so...

Bingo!!! I couldn’t explain it that well, but this is exactly my feeling with the trackers! I prefer to to ride the edge with predictable understeer.

 

[Phatboyc]

I’m running 8” Woodys Maverick single bars
Shaper style
Tallest bar on the market
Full length so good in loose snow vs shorter bars
Very good bite and virtually no darting
Only a little at off throttle when coming to a stop on tracked up trail

I found that the biggest thing is to always have at least a little throttle on and the bigger balls ya got...
Even better

I think Everlaster are taller?

 

[jonlafon1]

What I didn't like about trackers, and still don't is that I prefer predictable and progressive push (understeer) vs oversteer which is almost never predictable and controlling it comes at greater expense of control and momentum. It comes from racing flat track, desert races, and SCCA where smooth = fast. Its also just easier to control push than oversteer, especially on corner entry through mid corner. When you get into trouble and you have a slight push, a slight correction of throttle will bring the vehicle back in line, this is fairly predictable. Its easier to ride the edge. When you have oversteer, it takes a lot more adjustment in throttle to recover in which case you have lost both control and momentum. This isn't a skill thing, its a fast line thing. For everything else I like trackers so maybe... likely, its just having to get used to the compromise. Trackers are better in many other conditions including in a straight line so...

I agree with this some on the aggressive trackers, as they were slightly unpredictable.. The semi aggressive are very predictable. I have not run the aggressive with the proper skis though.. I know guys are running the aggressive on CAT skis. How? I have no idea.. Because aggressive on Cat skis are very dangerous IMO.. Filled my shorts a few times when they decided to "DIG" on a hot corner. Aggressive on Cat skis make the very back of the ski rub on the ground.. To much angle IMO. Its like the front of the ski is tipped way up into the air.
. Everything changed with semi on cat skis.. I really like them. Perfect for my riding style. ZERO push on a 2021 Cat 8000 ...They will push ever so slightly in really loose snow(sugar snow) on warm days on the sidewinder. But its very predictable and very slight.. When the trails get broke down and turn to sugar snow i slow down a little anyways..

 

[hibshman25]

I like semi aggressive best personally. I tell guys that insist on the agg that you always have to be on your "A" game in the corner with aggressive. If you get lazy with aggressives they will get even the best of riders. The semi are much more forgiving if there is some push and then bite.

The aggressives can be quite squirrely if trails are set real hard/icey with minimal snow and the correctors do not make contact with anything. With the aggressives being taller it increases chances of correctors being ineffective.

The tuner sets I sell that are sold by most are the aggressive, but they are considered aggressive due to the quantity of carbide. With two runners there is more carbide than a single keel kit. The critical thing to note is the depth of the tuner aggressive is not as deep as a single keel kit which allows them to behave more like a semi kit.