Broke my sled.......again!

[KnappAttack]

I disagree. This primary clutch is the same basic design as previous Yamaha primaries, except the spider and castings are thicker. Myself and my group of riding buddies have been running high hp turbo apex, nytro and vipers for many years. Never have any of us had a problem with pushing out the bushing on primary rollers. Only difference is 15.5mm rollers vs the winders 14.5mm.

If the roller itself is getting damaged, it is because the bushings are getting pushed out of the roller, then the roller doesn't spin anymore, and the weight sliding on the roller is what is causing the actual roller to get damaged. My sidewinder had over 6000kms running 80+gram stm weights on the original 14.5mm rollers. Every 500kms or so one of the rollers would push the bushing out, and I would take it out and reinstall the bushings and be good for another 500-1000kms. I wanted higher engagement, so I decided to switch to some 15.5 mm rollers I had lying around, and after 500kms or so the bushings are still where they are supposed to be in the roller. I ran out of time this season for a longer test, but I am sure this has solved the problem.

To the guys that are snapping belts with cool clutches, its because the secondary and primary do not work well together in stock form. The belt doesn't stay tensioned properly in the clutches, and the belt going slack in the secondary and then grabbing all at once and snapping it in 2, or damaging the belt so it snaps shortly after.

The other problem with blowing belts is the offset being incorrect, measure it with straight edge or hurricanes tool. This is not a problem that is new to the sidewinder. We haven't seen much of this problem before because a Viper doesn't have enough power to fully shift the clutches and destroy a belt like the winder does. On my brothers 400hp viper, we also had to machine the back of the secondary clutch to achieve proper alignment when fully shifted out.

I have broke the bushings in every roller but one, which did slide off to the side and bind. My buddy who runs Ulmers clutching setup and EVO tune, same thing, the bushings crack and go away.

The Apex has a cushioned drive and were easy on belts and clutches, I ran turbo Apex too with huge success. Put big power to the sidewinder and clutch parts and belts do not last when running them hard. I had none of these problems on Apex due to the cushioned drive. Three cylinder four-strokes are much tougher on clutches and belts with no cushion drive and their pulses. The Doo 1200 will destroy certain clutches as well. I think the spline slop may have an adverse effect on parts and belts as well, because this engine and clutch combo is way harder on belts than my 1200 was.

Less power on the Winder engine is much easier on parts as well when trail riding.

I have no problem shimming the spider and going to larger rollers if it indeed cures this, but I don't see it helping with bushings that are cracking inside the roller and wearing out. I don't know if the cracking is a heat thing, or it they are breaking due to the shock of the belts blowing which is more along the lines I was thinking was happening when the clutch slammed together.

I had one belt on for the first 1560 Miles, really thought something as wrong with all these guys blowing belts, then started running up on the 290 tune, now its been every 300-400 miles per belt and even reduced the offset, still cooking belts with 58.8 offset. My sled doesn't like life with the big power tunes. Life is fine down at the 240 tune however.

 

[Big_Phil]

I have broke the bushings in every roller but one, which did slide off to the side and bind. My buddy who runs Ulmers clutching setup and EVO tune, same thing, the bushings crack and go away.

The Apex has a cushioned drive and were easy on belts and clutches, I ran turbo Apex too with huge success. Put big power to the sidewinder and clutch parts and belts do not last when running them hard. I had none of these problems on Apex due to the cushioned drive. Three cylinder four-strokes are much tougher on clutches and belts with no cushion drive and their pulses. The Doo 1200 will destroy certain clutches as well. I think the spline slop may have an adverse effect on parts and belts as well, because this engine and clutch combo is way harder on belts than my 1200 was.

Less power on the Winder engine is much easier on parts as well when trail riding.

I have no problem shimming the spider and going to larger rollers if it indeed cures this, but I don't see it helping with bushings that are cracking inside the roller and wearing out. I don't know if the cracking is a heat thing, or it they are breaking due to the shock of the belts blowing which is more along the lines I was thinking was happening when the clutch slammed together.

I had one belt on for the first 1560 Miles, really thought something as wrong with all these guys blowing belts, then started running up on the 290 tune, now its been every 300-400 miles per belt and even reduced the offset, still cooking belts with 58.8 offset. My sled doesn't like life with the big power tunes. Life is fine down at the 240 tune however.

I understand the apex has a cushioned drive, but Im talking about Nytros and vipers which have the same engine as the sidewinder. If you look at a 14.5mm roller vs a 15.5mm, the bushing is the same size. The small roller, the metal is super thin, maybe with the added power and heavy clutch weights, the smaller roller is warping or something causing the bushing to get damaged. I don't know exactly what is happening, I just know the 15.5 mm rollers last much longer on a nytro or viper turbo. Personally I like the way the sled drives with the bigger rollers. I can load up the heel on my supertips, and the bigger rollers keep the engagement high enough. Works really well corner to corner and doesn't overshift as much when you get track spin. I ran 250+hp on my nytro for 15000kms on the same primary, never changed a roller. Ran the same STM60ys set up almost the same as my winder.

That being said, when running high hp on the trails, we generally get 1000kms on average to a belt, but my and my buddies usually drive like animals.

 

[TurboJamie]

I understand the apex has a cushioned drive, but Im talking about Nytros and vipers which have the same engine as the sidewinder. If you look at a 14.5mm roller vs a 15.5mm, the bushing is the same size. The small roller, the metal is super thin, maybe with the added power and heavy clutch weights, the smaller roller is warping or something causing the bushing to get damaged. I don't know exactly what is happening, I just know the 15.5 mm rollers last much longer on a nytro or viper turbo. Personally I like the way the sled drives with the bigger rollers. I can load up the heel on my supertips, and the bigger rollers keep the engagement high enough. Works really well corner to corner and doesn't overshift as much when you get track spin. I ran 250+hp on my nytro for 15000kms on the same primary, never changed a roller. Ran the same STM60ys set up almost the same as my winder.

That being said, when running high hp on the trails, we generally get 1000kms on average to a belt, but my and my buddies usually drive like animals.

I was in Quebec for 3 days with a buddy that "blacktop" Kevin setup from Stouffville not sure you know him. Anyways TD PT map, super quiet muffler STM weights and whatever else they do to the primary and secondary. In 1500 km he used 2 belts, while I don't find that acceptable he does and for the power it should is darn fun. So insane fast its hilarious to ride. But he has 5,000 miles on the thing so like 8,000 km on the original rollers.

 

[KnappAttack]

I understand the apex has a cushioned drive, but Im talking about Nytros and vipers which have the same engine as the sidewinder. If you look at a 14.5mm roller vs a 15.5mm, the bushing is the same size. The small roller, the metal is super thin, maybe with the added power and heavy clutch weights, the smaller roller is warping or something causing the bushing to get damaged. I don't know exactly what is happening, I just know the 15.5 mm rollers last much longer on a nytro or viper turbo. Personally I like the way the sled drives with the bigger rollers. I can load up the heel on my supertips, and the bigger rollers keep the engagement high enough. Works really well corner to corner and doesn't overshift as much when you get track spin. I ran 250+hp on my nytro for 15000kms on the same primary, never changed a roller. Ran the same STM60ys set up almost the same as my winder.

That being said, when running high hp on the trails, we generally get 1000kms on average to a belt, but my and my buddies usually drive like animals.

Makes sense. I thought about that too as I thought with the heavy weight I'm running that it was distorting or enlarging and thinning the roller, but they measure the same as a new stock one. I may have to try the larger roller, I have enough of them here to try from the old turbo RX-1 & Apex days, I was going to shim the spider with more shim anyway so no harm trying them if its helping yours.

 

[Big_Phil]

Makes sense. I thought about that too as I thought with the heavy weight I'm running that it was distorting or enlarging and thinning the roller, but they measure the same as a new stock one. I may have to try the larger roller, I have enough of them here to try from the old turbo RX-1 & Apex days, I was going to shim the spider with more shim anyway so no harm trying them if its helping yours.

Ya I tried it because I have a few sets of rollers lying around. I was at the Yamaha dealer as well, and they told me one of the clutch updates is larger rollers for 2019, along with a different secondary spring and Helix. They gave me a replacement side panel for my sled under warranty, but they told me not to install it until they have the updated clutch parts.

What does shimming the spider do?

 

[Big_Phil]

I was in Quebec for 3 days with a buddy that "blacktop" Kevin setup from Stouffville not sure you know him. Anyways TD PT map, super quiet muffler STM weights and whatever else they do to the primary and secondary. In 1500 km he used 2 belts, while I don't find that acceptable he does and for the power it should is darn fun. So insane fast its hilarious to ride. But he has 5,000 miles on the thing so like 8,000 km on the original rollers.

I think one of the problems with running high speed trails is with stock gearing 1:1 shift is 112mph or so. These sleds have so much power to push deep into overdrive, It can’t be good for belt life. One of my buddies gets less Kms to a belt than I do, and he is a master at setting sleds up, but he does a lot more high speed running than I do.

 

[hibshman25]

Started digging into these issues.

Got some plates designed and am making up cad drawings this afternoon.

Also working on my own heavy duty cross shaft. Exploring the idea of a steel shaft with an OD of the end collars so its just 1 continuous diameter shaft that replaces the factory shaft and collars. I think the collars were designed so its a replaceable wear item, but has anyone actually wore a set out?

 

[SumpBuster]

Started digging into these issues.

Got some plates designed and am making up cad drawings this afternoon.

Also working on my own heavy duty cross shaft. Exploring the idea of a steel shaft with an OD of the end collars so its just 1 continuous diameter shaft that replaces the factory shaft and collars. I think the collars were designed so its a replaceable wear item, but has anyone actually wore a set out?

I'm in!
Doc says I'm overwieght, so losing a few pounds on me, will be a wash adding them back to reinforce the sled!!
From a cat site...looks like the bushing is meant to wear, or slide easier?(Might be an old pic)

 

[stevewithOCD]

Is there ANY reason for this design other than ease of skid removal?
What ever happened to bolting the chassis in?
Bolts, NOT TORX!!!!!!!!!

 

[stevewithOCD]

The more i look at this design, the ANGRIER i get!
These pieces rub each other. Of course they are going to wear! Are we suppose to grease this spot?
How the hell does the shaft break after the bushings?

 

[sideshowBob]

I think one of the problems with running high speed trails is with stock gearing 1:1 shift is 112mph or so. These sleds have so much power to push deep into overdrive, It can’t be good for belt life. One of my buddies gets less Kms to a belt than I do, and he is a master at setting sleds up, but he does a lot more high speed running than I do.

I agree...sustained overdrive and the resulting belt speed destroys belts...same issues 850 Doos are running into with their overdrive clutches. But really only a part of the issues that need to be addressed

 

[SumpBuster]

Is there ANY reason for this design other than ease of skid removal?
What ever happened to bolting the chassis in?
Bolts, NOT TORX!!!!!!!!!

I believe it tries to keep the skis more planted. Not sure. I haven't found the napkin sketch from the bar in Thief River Falls to know the original intent. Yet!
Maybe it's a good idea, with not so great execution.

 

[jaydaniels]

Is there ANY reason for this design other than ease of skid removal?
What ever happened to bolting the chassis in?
Bolts, NOT TORX!!!!!!!!!

 

[stevewithOCD]

Thank you Mr Daniels, that does explain a few things. In theory & on paper it sounds good.
Now why did they put basically a #2 pencil in there to hold it all together?

I'm basically losing confidence in some things with this sled.
I can deal with belt issues. As a matter of fact, i'm kinda having some fun with it learning & experimenting.

Things that go thru an OCD head while driving:
1. Will my reverse mechanism screw up leaving me stranded or driving in reverse for 100 miles?
2. Will my oil tank leak causing catastrophic failure that Yam won't pay for?
3. How can i make the grumpy KNAPP smile?
4. Will my "Slide Action" rear suspension hold up to this "old Man's" riding style?
5. Will Yamaha incorporate Torx bolts in their new Japanese made chassis?
6. How come i didn't get invited to MrSled's wedding?

Sometimes i hate my brain. It's smarter than me!

 

[XP123]

Honestly Cat has some great ideas and designs. Our Winders ride and handle as good or better than anything else on the trail. The problem with Cat is they just fall short with build quality. I think it has been much better since the Yamaha merger but so many things need attention.