Clutch observation and issue. Calling clutch experts here.

[ClutchMaster]

I went and visited Gagne Lassard today. Let me tell you, it is far different than what is being discussed here.

Let me tell you, I’m so glad youve got this all figured out! Wasting a lot of my time here when I need to be riding.

 

[STAIN]

Adding the Stiffer TP spring didn’t help matters.

Is your belt returning to the top of the secondary?

Clutches cool?

Belt returns to the top. Clutch is cool, I can put my hand on them and leave it there, I would say around 130 deg. Sled drives much differently. It upshifts quickly and rolls out easily. I even gained 2 mpg!!
The stock 35 degree helix is there to match the flat primary weights. When you change the stock weight to a more aggressive profile, you must change the helix profile as well. It seems that are people using the stiffer secondary spring to temporarily mask this problem.
Some times people think when they have that "snap" upon acceleration their sled is faster when actually it is just being held in a lower gear longer. This may be good for an application like sno-cross but the sled is not "faster". I have seen many "clutch kits "that do just that, making people believe the sled is faster when it not.
Put your truck in 1st gear and drive it around town. It has great throttle response, but it doesn't go any where. Same thing with monster secondary springs.

 

[staggs65]

At work now for another 10 days. Trails were shot back home prior to leaving for work but I did get on the lake for a handful of passes all in the low to mid 120s at 2000' on my TD GPS. I stopped after every pass and checked my clutches. I could put my hands on them, much cooler than my experiences with the TP spring and stock and 35-39 helixes. Clutches were nice and clean showing no signs of slip. The spring I tested with was ulmers red at 9-1 wrap. Allen told me 9-1 was equivalent to stock at 3-3 using a fish scale. I have the Dalton black orange to try when I get home. So far I'm optimistic it's going to work well.

I’m using Ulmers stage 2 with Hurricane’s 270r. Told Allen what I was running and they were spot on right out of the box.

 

[alpineviper]

Belt returns to the top. Clutch is cool, I can put my hand on them and leave it there, I would say around 130 deg. Sled drives much differently. It upshifts quickly and rolls out easily. I even gained 2 mpg!!
The stock 35 degree helix is there to match the flat primary weights. When you change the stock weight to a more aggressive profile, you must change the helix profile as well. It seems that are people using the stiffer secondary spring to temporarily mask this problem.
Some times people think when they have that "snap" upon acceleration their sled is faster when actually it is just being held in a lower gear longer. This may be good for an application like sno-cross but the sled is not "faster". I have seen many "clutch kits "that do just that, making people believe the sled is faster when it not.
Put your truck in 1st gear and drive it around town. It has great throttle response, but it doesn't go any where. Same thing with monster secondary springs.

So what your saying is if you go to a more aggressive profile weight that you need a steeper helix as well?

 

[STAIN]

So what your saying is if you go to a more aggressive profile weight that you need a steeper helix as well?

That is how Gagne Lessard explained to me......

 

[Big_Phil]

That is how Gagne Lessard explained to me......

What weights are you talking about here? Youre running heelclickers?

The STM 60ys dont look that much different from the stock yamaha weights. A little more curve than stock, but nothing drastic looking.

 

[snowbeast]

What weights are you talking about here? Youre running heelclickers?

The STM 60ys dont look that much different from the stock yamaha weights. A little more curve than stock, but nothing drastic looking.

Yes that is the weights I am running stm loaded 80 grms,with soft primary spring.

 

[STAIN]

I am running the standard Heelclickers designed for the Sidewinder clutch.

 

[Big_Phil]

I am running the standard Heelclickers designed for the Sidewinder clutch.

How are they working for you? I had heelclicker weights on my 02 viper with triple pipes, that sled was a major overachiever. I wish I could replicate clutching like that on my sidwinder. I might have to try some out.

We tried using some on my turbo nytro, but the weights used to wear out too fast for trail riding. The STM 50ys will wear out on a turbo sled too, I think its because the weight is narrower, I assume the heelclickers made for the sidewinder are a wider weight?

 

[STAIN]

Not really wider but longer. I have been running these weights or a version of them since the early 2000's. I have yet to find any thing else that grabs the belt as hard, and I have tried a lot of them.
The three cylinders are hard on weights for sure and the heelclickers do seem to wear faster. I had a conversation with Roger at Grace performance and he had a different angle on why they wear faster on the high power 3 cylinders and after Talking to Gagne Lessard, it starting to make some sense to me.

 

[Big_Phil]

Not really wider but longer. I have been running these weights or a version of them since the early 2000's. I have yet to find any thing else that grabs the belt as hard, and I have tried a lot of them.
The three cylinders are hard on weights for sure and the heelclickers do seem to wear faster. I had a conversation with Roger at Grace performance and he had a different angle on why they wear faster on the high power 3 cylinders and after Talking to Gagne Lessard, it starting to make some sense to me.

Ya the setup I had on my oldschool viper was deadly. Whats their reasoning to wearing faster?

You got the heelclickers directly from them I assume? I might actually try a set, gonna have to make a call tomorrow.

 

[STAIN]

They sent the weights already set up with a secondary spring, their set up did not work very well, slipped in both primary and secondary. I had a set up with TP orange secondary spring that was pretty close.

Roger's theory is that when people add power they usually add a heavy secondary spring( sound familiar?) During TRAIL riding that heavy secondary spring makes the clutches run in a narrower window, making the primary run in a narrower window, putting all the power pulses on a smaller section of the weight therefore causing premature wear on that part of the weight. Those thoughts were rattling around in my head when I began to talk clutching with Mr. Lessard. After he explained why he runs the springs and angles he does with his clutching it all kinda came together in my feeble mind.
I am no expert on clutching but like think I have learned a few things over the years. . I have been fooling with snowmobile clutching for over 25 years and find it fun to try to make them perfect. It is fun to make small changes and see the improvements, or regressions, It is kinda like a complex puzzle and rewarding when you get it right. . I really like talking to those who do it professionally and find I learn something new every time.
Remember to test, test, test. Be willing to take suggestions but in the end it is YOUR sled and it has to drive the way YOU want.

I miss Turks input on these discussions, he had a good grasp on these things.

 

[jlinstruth]

Been watching this and other clutching threads, two things
1. Would be great to give riding type for setup, seems not lot of aggressive corner to corner clutching, seems more top end stuff maybe.
2. If anyone has straight 38 to sell I'd be interested, looking to try it next.

 

[Big_Phil]

They sent the weights already set up with a secondary spring, their set up did not work very well, slipped in both primary and secondary. I had a set up with TP orange secondary spring that was pretty close.

Roger's theory is that when people add power they usually add a heavy secondary spring( sound familiar?) During TRAIL riding that heavy secondary spring makes the clutches run in a narrower window, making the primary run in a narrower window, putting all the power pulses on a smaller section of the weight therefore causing premature wear on that part of the weight. Those thoughts were rattling around in my head when I began to talk clutching with Mr. Lessard. After he explained why he runs the springs and angles he does with his clutching it all kinda came together in my feeble mind.
I am no expert on clutching but like think I have learned a few things over the years. . I have been fooling with snowmobile clutching for over 25 years and find it fun to try to make them perfect. It is fun to make small changes and see the improvements, or regressions, It is kinda like a complex puzzle and rewarding when you get it right. . I really like talking to those who do it professionally and find I learn something new every time.
Remember to test, test, test. Be willing to take suggestions but in the end it is YOUR sled and it has to drive the way YOU want.

I miss Turks input on these discussions, he had a good grasp on these things.

Ya. I'm just trying to read up and learn what I can. It does make sense about the weights wearing out for trail riding, also going the same speeds a lot will do it.

I think these clutches are still too new, and too many people are running different combinations of tunes right now. With non turbo sleds, everyone pretty much has the same powerband, and you're just adjusting for rider weight/style, track and gearing. With these sidewinders, you have people running 190-290 hp. A plethora of different track lengths and stud combinations. Mix matches of exhausts and tunes and intakes. This makes harder to say what works and what doesn't. its going to take a while for people to figure out what works best.

 

[ClutchMaster]

What weights are you talking about here? Youre running heelclickers?

The STM 60ys dont look that much different from the stock yamaha weights. A little more curve than stock, but nothing drastic looking.

60y weights are actually a good middle of the road between stock and clickers. They work well and are a good overall weight.
The stock club weights push very hard at the beginning of the shift, but use a lot of weight to keep pressure on the belt at high speeds. Clickers use a lot of curvature and weight placement to achieve the same goal. Since most of the weight is in the heal it it does not contribute very much at full shift.
Adding a gram in the tip of stock weights does virtually nothing compared to adding a gram in the tip of clickers or STMs.
The stock weights push so hard at the beginning of the shift if you were to use them with those higher helix angles they would bog the motor down unless you put a huge Spring in the primary. At full shift they really are crappy for tuning because adding weight has little affect.
It's all about the contact angle on the roller. Now if someone were to regrind the profile on the stock weight???
Naw just use them as bottom bouncers next time you walleye fishing in 50' of water.