Clutch observation and issue. Calling clutch experts here.

[Snowaddict]

To much belt clamping force is overheating your clutches. You need either less spring force or more helix angle. Unwrapping the spring helps but can only do so much. Before I suggested going to a 38 helix with the TP orange, but jonlafon is suggesting even more helix may be better with that large of a spring.

Jon uses a straight 38 and I'm running a 35/39. He's tuned and I'm stock. I actually gained 200 RPM with the TP orange secondary spring (8700). That's good, but I'm still 200 away from powerband (I believe is 8900.) Guess I'm wondering if I should go back to the stock secondary spring or rewrap TP at 0-3? Seems doing something different with spring is cheaper than buying new helix. Either way, it seems like I should remove some tip weight (not that I'm actually mechanically inclined to accomplish that myself) to get better RPM. Also, is there any risk in just using stock spring? Since it' it's considered "wimpy ", will it eventually break?

 

[ClutchMaster]

Top to bottom
Yami white
AC yellow
AC red/white
EPI purple

Yamaha White has A LOT of torsion but not much side pressure at installed height.

Cat yellow is a medium/low torsion but has more side pressure at installed height than yami white.

Cat red/white is medium/stiff torsion with even heavier side pressure @ installed height

EPI purple = Cat green and is very stiff in compression and torsion.

One thing is for certain higher helix angles need more side pressure. More Torsion slows the shift out/ improves backshift.

You can play with springs and helix angles all day to get the upshift/backshift you prefer but if you start to get out of your “belt tension window” you will get heat from to much or to little belt grip.
This is what happened with the TP orange spring. It gave really good backshift and was snappy but was just too much belt clamping force up midrange top end.

Like I said 50 posts ago be a pioneer and run a Arctic cat red/white with a 42 degree helix and see what happens. But don’t use those dam stock caveman club weights, use them for fishing sinkers.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Jon uses a straight 38 and I'm running a 35/39. He's tuned and I'm stock. I actually gained 200 RPM with the TP orange secondary spring (8700). That's good, but I'm still 200 away from powerband (I believe is 8900.) Guess I'm wondering if I should go back to the stock secondary spring or rewrap TP at 0-3? Seems doing something different with spring is cheaper than buying new helix. Either way, it seems like I should remove some tip weight (not that I'm actually mechanically inclined to accomplish that myself) to get better RPM. Also, is there any risk in just using stock spring? Since it' it's considered "wimpy ", will it eventually break?

Correct you will need to remove some tip weight.
We need jonlafon to weight in on his clutch temps.
You guys keep sucking me in, I don’t have a winder here to mess with so I’m in the dark.

 

[Snowaddict]

You guys keep sucking me in, I don’t have a winder here to mess with so I’m in the dark.

What else do you expect with a name like "Clutchmaster"? Lol.

 

[WinterWolf]

Correct you will need to remove some tip weight.
We need jonlafon to weight in on his clutch temps.
You guys keep sucking me in, I don’t have a winder here to mess with so I’m in the dark.

Question for the ClutchMaster:

Will a sled/Winder, that’s still breaking in(417 miles) gain TOP END RPM as it breaks in and loosens up? I was told by dealer that it will continue to break in until about 1000 miles or so. (Which is what my Apex did as well when it was new).

I have a stock tune Winder, with a completely stock primary, and my top end RPM’s are at about 8600, which is about 200 low. When the sled had zero miles, the top RPMS Were 8400. So they’ve increased by about 200 rpms in 400 miles.
Don’t want to take any weight out of the primary just yet, if the sled is going to gain R’s as it breaks in..which it seems to be doing as more miles get put on...

 

[jonlafon1]

Takes MORE THEN 1000. My cat 7000 I was adding tip weight up until 3000 miles. If your 200-300 short on top end pulls and under 1000 miles I would not get to excited. Snow conditions can cause 100-300 rpm diff. Also
Sorry clutchmaster. Answered for you

 

[jonlafon1]

I will say if you go higher helix angles - be careful with to stiff a spring. I know this goes against clutching 101. But I believe the stock secondary spring s better then what everyone thinks. It's bad because the coils are tight and it maybe binds but I still feel it's decent. My secondary pocket is machined also.

 

[WinterWolf]

Takes MORE THEN 1000. My cat 7000 I was adding tip weight up until 3000 miles. If your 200-300 short on top end pulls and under 1000 miles I would not get to excited. Snow conditions can cause 100-300 rpm diff. Also
Sorry clutchmaster. Answered for you

Thanks. Was thinking the same thing. Gonna let it break in more before taking out any weight. Appreciate the response.

 

[STAIN]

I will say if you go higher helix angles - be careful with to stiff a spring. I know this goes against clutching 101. But I believe the stock secondary spring s better then what everyone thinks. It's bad because the coils are tight and it maybe binds but I still feel it's decent. My secondary pocket is machined also.

I ran a stock spring with a 45-41 helix today trail riding with good results. Now I have to fine tune the primary
The spring is not the problem with the secondary folks----its the helix.

 

[DMCTurbo]

Correct. 45-41, stock spring, heelclicker weights with underdetermined weight just yet, I have to do some testing. One thing he spoke of was the LENTH of the stock 35 degree ramp

It's funny you say this cause when I compare my STM 42-36 to my stock and Dalton helixes the ramps are considerably shorter on the STM. It made me wonder if STM and Dalton measure the angles differently.

 

[jonlafon1]

I ran a stock spring with a 45-41 helix today trail riding with good results. Now I have to fine tune the primary
The spring is not the problem with the secondary folks----its the helix.

AMEN

 

[snowbeast]

It's funny you say this cause when I compare my STM 42-36 to my stock and Dalton helixes the ramps are considerably shorter on the STM. It made me wonder if STM and Dalton measure the angles differently.

Hi brother,so how are you liking your stm 42/36? And what spring did you end up running with it,at what wrap?

 

[DMCTurbo]

Hi brother,so how are you liking your stm 42/36? And what spring did you end up running with it,at what wrap?

At work now for another 10 days. Trails were shot back home prior to leaving for work but I did get on the lake for a handful of passes all in the low to mid 120s at 2000' on my TD GPS. I stopped after every pass and checked my clutches. I could put my hands on them, much cooler than my experiences with the TP spring and stock and 35-39 helixes. Clutches were nice and clean showing no signs of slip. The spring I tested with was ulmers red at 9-1 wrap. Allen told me 9-1 was equivalent to stock at 3-3 using a fish scale. I have the Dalton black orange to try when I get home. So far I'm optimistic it's going to work well.

 

[ClutchMaster]

I ran a stock spring with a 45-41 helix today trail riding with good results. Now I have to fine tune the primary
The spring is not the problem with the secondary folks----its the helix.

Adding the Stiffer TP spring didn’t help matters.

Is your belt returning to the top of the secondary?

Clutches cool?

 

[snowbeast]

At work now for another 10 days. Trails were shot back home prior to leaving for work but I did get on the lake for a handful of passes all in the low to mid 120s at 2000' on my TD GPS. I stopped after every pass and checked my clutches. I could put my hands on them, much cooler than my experiences with the TP spring and stock and 35-39 helixes. Clutches were nice and clean showing no signs of slip. The spring I tested with was ulmers red at 9-1 wrap. Allen told me 9-1 was equivalent to stock at 3-3 using a fish scale. I have the Dalton black orange to try when I get home. So far I'm optimistic it's going to work well.

I wonder if allens red spring is the one he sent me,last year with the stm 38,as it was allred 4 coil long spring with either blue stripe or black stripe,but he wanted me to wrap it 10 degrees,zero and 1,but we never did lol as I got wrong info,and told the guys who wrapped it,to do zero and 3 for 30 degrees,which was way to much wrap,the funny thing is,if I match that ulmer spring to the Dalton orange blk spring,the tang alignment is very close,and dale states his can be wrapped 6 and 1 maybe more,did you run the 42/36 yet?