Dalton black/orange VS Dalton black/tan

[KnappAttack]

Thanks Mike. Any chance you can tell me how I get 95 twist on that black/ orange? I think I’m going to stick with the 90 on the back/orange unless my heat gun tells me differently. But I thought I saw you had drilled another hole in helix for the 95 twist. I’m guessing I might need that little extra. I hate to drill out helix wrong or mess it up.

The added holes need to be drilled into your helix. Like this Jon. I copied an old Simons CPR helix that was already built like this.

 

[jonlafon1]

The added holes need to be drilled into your helix. Like this Jon. I copied an old Simons CPR helix that was already built like this.

View attachment 177932

View attachment 177933

Thanks Mike

 

[Fleecer]

Hold the phone!!!!!!!

It was bothering me as to why the finish pressure were so high on my spring testing the other day, it dawned on me this AM that my helix's are machined on the hub. I did this machining to be able to run the TEAM primary and utilize Cats 1.5" wide belt. I doubt anyone is doing that so the figures I posted on post #41 are skewed because of the addition travel I'm measuring at.

I re-tested all my pressures today with stock secondary movable travel. I grabbed a stock helix without the hub machined, put it in the drill press, touched on it and backed off on the travel .020" as to not bottom on the hub. This is where most will run at full shift and where I should have been measuring from. I was not my intention to mis-lead anyone because I forgot I have machined all my hubs for the added travel, but I knew these finish numbers I used earlier seemed really-really high before it dawned on me as to the why.

So here are the figures with the finish travel at minus .020" from the hub bottoming on a stock helix. This is much more realistic to full shift using Yamaha belts. You can see its way less that it was previously and really shows how the tan spring reacts to a big increase in twist with adding travel to the movable.

Jon, use these figures for future reference. Not the other chart with the added travel. I'm taking down the old chart as its misleading using the added travel for the 1.5" wide belt. I dont want people mis-lead with it.

View attachment 177925

Makes more sense, as now the BLK/tan at 60, has less tension than b/I at 80. Thanks for sharing

 

[Doc Harley]

I like this, as it illustrates the complexity of a simple helix change and its effect on pressure the belt is actually seeing.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[KnappAttack]

I like this, as it illustrates the complexity of a simple helix change and its effect on pressure the belt is actually seeing.

Thanks for sharing.

Well it shows the effect of the spring on the side pressure while going thru the travel. It does not help with the amount of side pressure added with the torque transfer thru the helix angle, thats for another discussion and a whole other subject. Obviously lees helix angle will add even more side pressure at a given position.

What it does show with the different figures on two helixes, is it shows the effect on how much the spring gets twisted, which in turn adds to the side pressure on the belt thru spring wrap and compression. In other words, its just one piece of the puzzle, but it does show the differences in springs for sure in the way that it really matters, on the secondary thru its travel from low to high on different helixes.

 

[jonlafon1]

Makes more sense, as now the BLK/tan at 60, has less tension than b/I at 80. Thanks for sharing

Sure caught my eye when guys were saying 3/3 or 6/1 on black/tan.. But this clears that up. I think if a guy has these two springs he is going to be able to have options for tunes/stock/ and in between. The black/tan seems short compared to the black/orange. GUESSING if you wrap that black/tan up to tight it could bind? Wondering if that's why they came out with black/orange for the winder? What came first the black/tan? By no means saying anything bad about black/tan . Just a observation when installing it and messing around some with it.

 

[KnappAttack]

Makes more sense, as now the BLK/tan at 60, has less tension than b/I at 80. Thanks for sharing

I knew the pressures could not be as high as I had them originally Glenn, or you'd be blowing belts and not going 150 MPH out there with pressures at that 380 LB range. LOL!

It was beyond comprehension to me the more I thought about it and why I PM'd you and asked if you were monitoring belts temps. I couldn't imagine having that much pressure being need to keep a hold on the belts, then it hit me, I was measuring on the helixes I had machined the hubs on for the additional travel I needed for the TEAM and 1.5" wide belt. Thats when it hit me that no one is doing that so my original figures were skewed horribly. I had to re-test for a stock helix hub on the Yamaha width and length belts.

 

[KnappAttack]

Sure caught my eye when guys were saying 3/3 or 6/1 on black/tan.. But this clears that up. I think if a guy has these two springs he is going to be able to have options for tunes/stock/ and in between. The black/tan seems short compared to the black/orange. GUESSING if you wrap that black/tan up to tight it could bind? Wondering if that's why they came out with black/orange for the winder? What came first the black/tan? By no means saying anything bad about black/tan . Just a observation when installing it and messing around some with it.

The B/O came first. Then the Tan for guys that wanted a bit more pressure up top. Yes, the Tan is almost coil bound on my hubs with more travel and why they read so high. The tan is also coil bound on a Viper secondary early as are the stock white and pink is really bad.


It's funny because the stock yellow secondary spring is very close to coil bound at 60 wrap. set it at 70 and it is coil bound. I believe thats why they can get by as the belt pressure get really high at binding or close to binding. The Pink spring is coil bound real hard on the 35 helix. In this case could bind isn't so bad on those lighter springs as they just run out of travel. At least the coil bind pinch will keep a hold on the belt right at the end of travel. Sometimes I wonder if Yamaha did that by design honestly.

 

[jonlafon1]

At least the coil bind pinch will keep a hold on the belt right at the end of travel. Sometimes I wonder if Yamaha did that by design honestly.

Interesting thoughts here on this.. That's a fine line to walk on coil bind.

 

[Lusemeat924]

Mike.....you make a valid point!! For what it's worth, although I prefer the GBOOST, I've tested 3-3 with the Ultimax and had great results. I tried 3-1, 3-2, but 3-3 makes the best top speed and best belt temps. Just my findings......

What kind of Mega gearing are we talking about. I was about to change secondary set up again until I read this about your gearing Fleecer, lol

 

[Fleecer]

What kind of Mega gearing are we talking about. I was about to change secondary set up again until I read this about your gearing Fleecer, lol

Well, I hate to beat/abuse my machine, so I try to choose a ratio that puts the sled in the range of 125-130 GPS at half throttle. Lol

 

[jonlafon1]

Never had good testing grounds to do much of anything . To much snow and to much track spin. I do know this if you go to header tunes and a 1" you better add a pile of weight to clutch weights. I chased it and never got it clutched correctly in time for racing. The track sucked bad this year so no biggie. Watched and enjoyed the day this year at Bents. I never had the chance to compare the secondary springs as I couldn't stay off the rev limiter. I have it now that I had a chance to trail ride it all week. Header tunes are insane power. IMHO its a lot of instant power for trail riding. You can get into trouble REAL FAST on the header tunes. For just trail cruising the stock header is WAY plenty.

 

[Doc Harley]

Jon, I'm with ya. Testing has been very difficult the last couple years. Snow one day, none the next.
Heading 400miles up to Wis. just to do testing costs way too much.
I can count on both hands how many days were available to test & ride ( Northern Wis) and I admittedly missed a couple opportunities. Oh well....
Yes, the header tune mixed with clutching & traction feels like a 2stroke hitting the pipe. Abrupt & quick.
At least you're that much closer to your goals for next year.

 

[jonlafon1]

Jon, I'm with ya. Testing has been very difficult the last couple years. Snow one day, none the next.
Heading 400miles up to Wis. just to do testing costs way too much.
I can count on both hands how many days were available to test & ride ( Northern Wis) and I admittedly missed a couple opportunities. Oh well....
Yes, the header tune mixed with clutching & traction feels like a 2stroke hitting the pipe. Abrupt & quick.
At least you're that much closer to your goals for next year.

Yup. I rode my winder 8 times this season on trails. I do not ride on trash and rocks. I should have left it alone on the stock header as I had it dialed real nice. Not ripping header tunes but wow its a hand full on the trails.

 

[Doc Harley]

Yup. I rode my winder 8 times this season on trails. I do not ride on trash and rocks. I should have left it alone on the stock header as I had it dialed real nice. Not ripping header tunes but wow its a hand full on the trails.

Agree....buts it's like you've said b4,"Throttle control" Definitely will be a blast on those big lakes up in Wis.