Excessive body roll and heavy steering?

[The Tweaker]

It looks like the limiter strap plays no part in the weight on or off the ski's equation. I dropped mine to the last hole possible (extending it) and when you set it back on the ground the strap collapses.

 

[MXD]

The manual that my friend gave me to read (He's the service manager at a yami dealer) says that the limiter strap is the most vital component of ski pressure. Tight = more ski pressure, loose = less

 

[SledFreak]

The stiffer your springs are the harder it is for the sled to get on the sway bar. MR sled told me to soften the springs on my RX-1 when i was running Ohlins to get on the bar quicker to eliminate ski lift. It works

If you tighten the front shock preload you will most likley get inside ski lift.

How do you figure? If he tightens the preload, it stiffens the the shock, which will notallow the sled to roll coming out of a corner.

Your right sledfreak, it won't allow the sled to roll so the whole sled will tip. If you let the sled roll a little it will give the sway bar and the outside shock a chance to absorb some of the transfer from one side to the other. Besides it lowers the center of gravity. You can disagree all you want, but with my sled, that adjustment helped to cure my inside ski lift.

If you were to add a bigger sway bar, I would agree, but the stock does not cut it.

 

[Iceman57]

Im adding a 13mm this season...however,the biggest factor for me for flat cornering was LOWERING my fox floats,down to where the A arms are slightly LOWER then horizontal.....I ride GROOMED trails,so I have no probs running mine low...the lower center of gravity makes a huge difference,even with my transfer rod set loose,it stays flat....
not quite as low as my radaring pic in avatar...but lower then most run theres....


Ill post more on my findings with the 13mm bar this winter..hoping it is even flatter!

Dan

I guess Dan, Dirk, Mr. Sled and myself are making up what we did to cure our ski lift.

 

[mnf7sp]

Ride a Firecat for a year! Just lean and enjoy

 

[MXD]

Ride a Firecat for a year!

I haven't ever seen one that lasted that long

 

[mnf7sp]

Ride a Firecat for a year!

I haven't ever seen one that lasted that long

Mine lasted 4 years with no problems, 03f7!, I love my GT so don't hate!

 

[SledFreak]

Im adding a 13mm this season...however,the biggest factor for me for flat cornering was LOWERING my fox floats,down to where the A arms are slightly LOWER then horizontal.....I ride GROOMED trails,so I have no probs running mine low...the lower center of gravity makes a huge difference,even with my transfer rod set loose,it stays flat....
not quite as low as my radaring pic in avatar...but lower then most run theres....


Ill post more on my findings with the 13mm bar this winter..hoping it is even flatter!

Dan

I guess Dan, Dirk, Mr. Sled and myself are making up what we did to cure our ski lift.

Different sled, You cannot do the same thing two a regualr shock/spring that you can do to a fox. If you let the gas out of GT shock it probably flip on it's side. I'm done debating this issue. We are getting know where with this.

 

[Iceman57]

 

[ReX]

My Apex ER only has 150 miles on it and all of the suspension is stock. The only mods are 144 studs, shims, and 8 in carbides. The steering is very heavy and the machine is tippy. I have the Suspension Tuning guide that Yamah gives to dealers but it doesn't shed much light. I'm thinking I should loosen the limiter strap to reduce ski pressure and tighten up the preload in the front. Am I going the right direction?

Any suggestions?

The manual that my friend gave me to read (He's the service manager at a yami dealer) says that the limiter strap is the most vital component of ski pressure. Tight = more ski pressure, loose = less

With the monoshock set to stock settings there is nothing you can do to further reduce front ski pressure for cruising at a constant speed. When cruising the front limiter is already very loose (you can confirm this by sitting on the sled on flat ground and having a look at it).

If you tighten the limiter, it will help reduce inside ski lift when cornering because the front of the track can't droop down as much. This forces more weight on the outside ski and keeps the sled from rolling further. Loosening it from stock will make inside ski lift worse. Don't tighten it enough to be tight when sitting on the sled on a flat surface. If you do the steering will be come much heavier.

I played with the front shock springs on a few monoshock sleds and it really didn't make much difference as far as steering input required (cruising ski pressure). Reducing the height of the front helps body roll a little by lowering the center of gravity but it also lowers the roll center which increases the roll by a similar amount (reducing the front height does improve inside ski lift a little though). You also need to tighten the limiter to keep the same amount of limiter "loosness" while cruising which keeps a similar level of inside ski lift control (if you don't it will typically have more inside ski lift in corners than it did with the front higher). If you raise the front height it also appears to reduce body roll, but the reason is because the limiter strap is pulled tight sooner when the body rolls. In the end I put the front shock springs back to stock, but one guy I ride with found he liked his 06 RTX lowered about the same as machzed does (the spring rate increases faster with fox floats when lowered - regular springs like you have on the ER have a constant spring rate so lowering the front doesn't help as much).

When you're on the throttle ski pressure is affected by both the limiter strap and weight transfer setting. For cruising or braking all you can do is change skis, carbides, install ski savers, shim the skis, etc.

My advice - do the following step by step, testing each adjustment, preferably on the same day and same section of trail:

1) Start with everything stock (or a heavy rear spring if you need/want it)

2) Adjust the mono spring for a sit in of 40-45 mm (comparing unloaded shock/spring length to length after you sitting hard on the seat and staying put). If you have a softer spring or your a heavier guy aim for closer to 40 mm. You might have to move the c-clip to get this right. This is important to get right because the whole weight transfer balance for the skid and relationship with the limiter strap is affected by ride height (as well as spring stiffness compared to your weight). Your dealer should have performed this adjustment for you before you took your sled home (many do, many don't).

3) Install 6" carbides with Bergstrom ski savers and 1/4" shims (the shims help reduce darting, the ski savers reduce steering effort on hard packed conditions and further reduce darting). On hardpacked snow conditions 8" or 10" carbides greatly increase the steering effort required (but do provide more cornering grip - personally I prefer 8" carbides, but the steering is heavier as a result).

4) Reduce the weight transfer setting to about 2 ticks out of 8 using the gauge on the side of the weight transfer tool (this will reduce inside ski lift). You can reduce it more, but it will hurt the stutter bump compliance and traction while accelerating. If you find the launch is compromised too much try 3 ticks, etc. until you have the right compromise (I prefer to make this adjustment on hard packed conditions and set it so the skis are still "just" on the ground).

5) Tighten the limiter 1 to 2 holes tighter than stock (to reduce inside ski lift). When you tighten the limiter, slightly increase weight transfer to keep a decent launch (somewhere around 1 tick mark or slightly less per hole tighter). Again tweak the weight transfer to fine tune the right compromise for you (launch, accelerating out of a corner with the skis on the ground, and inside ski lift).

6) If you still find you have too much body roll and you feel you have extra front suspension bottoming out control, you can lower the front end a little. Check how loose the limiter is when sitting on the sled and tighten it if required to keep it the same after you've lowered the front end. Personally I would skip this step and go with a stiffer sway bar but it's up to you. You can always try it and see if it gives you the reduced body roll your looking for (without the front bottoming out).

7) If the steering is still to heavy, install aftermarket skis that specifically reduce steering input (I'm not sure which ones to recommend, but Skidoo skis are probably worth taking a look at).

8) If you still have too much body roll, install a stiffer front sway bar (stock is 11mm. 12mm and 13mm are available aftermarket and make a big improvement. The 13mm does give a significantly rougher ride and "kick" on single ski bumps where only one ski hits the bump).

Good luck.

I think you'll find the above will get you what you are looking for.

 

[MCApex44]

I am so freakin confused! 6" carbides vs 8" carbides...less pre-load vs more pre-load...transfer...limiter straps...sway bars etc. (those topics as well as the handle bar updates, overheating issues, bigger spring for 180+lb rider, how many studs(down the middle only?), bad wheels, bad stock ski's, chain case cover leaking, anti rub kit, marg snow kit, 4th wheel kit, antifreeze ratio, C-clip position, clanking noise at slow speeds, inacurate dream-o-meter, darting, shimming--did I miss anything??). Holy crap already! The TY forum is probably the most visited Yamaha site for Yamaha owners...why isnt there a Yamaha rep on here to answer questions?

When I brought the carbide topic up months ago...it seemed that if I was 'not' going switch to aftermarket ski's...the 8" woodys doolys would be the way to go. I tt Kevin at Port Yamaha before the purchase and with the amount of studs and my weight...he thought the 8" doolys would do the trick.

My thought process was always the less pre-load(the lower the sled sits) the better the cornering. More pre-load(the higher the sled sits) the sled is better for the bumps but will be more tippy when cornering. I compare it to if you pushed someone while they are standing straight up with their knees locked they would lose their balance easier compared to if the person had their knees bent(lower center of gravity--more stable).

Yes, this is my first Yamaha after years on Arctic Cats(last two years on an F7). On the F7...ski lift out of a corner was a bit more than a ZR chassis but it didnt bother me one bit(I would just stay on the gas and just ride it out or lean into it). Are you guys that are having problems with the sled being "tippy" leaning at all or are you just sitting straight up and letting the sled dictate(do you walk your dog or does your dog walk you)? The dealer said the sled is set-up/prepped for the riders/buyers weight. So is it the sled that needs all these changes/adjustments or is it the rider that needs to adjust to the sled?

Yes, my F7 is an 05' so I didnt have to deal with the "first year" issues(like the 03' F7 buyers did) but I am starting to question my decision on that I bought the 06' Apex since it was the first year of the Apex. Granted...I knew that I would have to take some actions/steps to set up the Apex which would allow for everything to be 'just right' before the season started(and I am willing to put the time and money into doing so). Again...I am really confused at this point. I am/have been reading the topics on this forum and its tug-of-war on many issues/concerns. I have been to 3 dealers and talked to each of them about various topics and get three different answers as well. If you ask me about sports I am very knowledgable but I am a mechanical IDIOT when it comes to this stuff. I can ride like the wind but wouldnt know where to start if the thing broke down. Therefore...I need to gather info...find out what is the "right way" and pay someone to do it--but thats the problem...seems it is harder than heck to find the "right" answer.

Sorry for the rant(and long message). I didnt realize I typed that much till I went back and read it.

 

[schmeg]

Hey Rex, is all the above applicable for use GT owners?

 

[ReX]

Hey Rex, is all the above applicable for use GT owners?

I've never set up a GT, but I don't see any reason it would be much different.

(I've set up 1 06 RTX, 2 Apex ERs & 1 05 RX-1)

 

[schmeg]

I do agree with the technique of lightening up on front spring pre-load, and using limiter strap settings and transfer settings to control body roll and handling. Front shock preload should be bumped up just to prevent bottoming. My only concern is with any differences with the GT rear shock being so much softer than the ER's. I did use the same techniques on my Polaris and worked pretty well, short of increasing swaybar thickness.

 

[ReX]

I am so freakin confused! 6" carbides vs 8" carbides...less pre-load vs more pre-load...transfer...limiter straps...sway bars etc. (those topics as well as the handle bar updates, overheating issues, bigger spring for 180+lb rider, how many studs(down the middle only?), bad wheels, bad stock ski's, chain case cover leaking, anti rub kit, marg snow kit, 4th wheel kit, antifreeze ratio, C-clip position, clanking noise at slow speeds, inacurate dream-o-meter, darting, shimming--did I miss anything??). Holy crap already! The TY forum is probably the most visited Yamaha site for Yamaha owners...why isnt there a Yamaha rep on here to answer questions?

When I brought the carbide topic up months ago...it seemed that if I was 'not' going switch to aftermarket ski's...the 8" woodys doolys would be the way to go. I tt Kevin at Port Yamaha before the purchase and with the amount of studs and my weight...he thought the 8" doolys would do the trick.

My thought process was always the less pre-load(the lower the sled sits) the better the cornering. More pre-load(the higher the sled sits) the sled is better for the bumps but will be more tippy when cornering. I compare it to if you pushed someone while they are standing straight up with their knees locked they would lose their balance easier compared to if the person had their knees bent(lower center of gravity--more stable).

Yes, this is my first Yamaha after years on Arctic Cats(last two years on an F7). On the F7...ski lift out of a corner was a bit more than a ZR chassis but it didnt bother me one bit(I would just stay on the gas and just ride it out or lean into it). Are you guys that are having problems with the sled being "tippy" leaning at all or are you just sitting straight up and letting the sled dictate(do you walk your dog or does your dog walk you)? The dealer said the sled is set-up/prepped for the riders/buyers weight. So is it the sled that needs all these changes/adjustments or is it the rider that needs to adjust to the sled?

Yes, my F7 is an 05' so I didnt have to deal with the "first year" issues(like the 03' F7 buyers did) but I am starting to question my decision on that I bought the 06' Apex since it was the first year of the Apex. Granted...I knew that I would have to take some actions/steps to set up the Apex which would allow for everything to be 'just right' before the season started(and I am willing to put the time and money into doing so). Again...I am really confused at this point. I am/have been reading the topics on this forum and its tug-of-war on many issues/concerns. I have been to 3 dealers and talked to each of them about various topics and get three different answers as well. If you ask me about sports I am very knowledgable but I am a mechanical IDIOT when it comes to this stuff. I can ride like the wind but wouldnt know where to start if the thing broke down. Therefore...I need to gather info...find out what is the "right way" and pay someone to do it--but thats the problem...seems it is harder than heck to find the "right" answer.

Sorry for the rant(and long message). I didnt realize I typed that much till I went back and read it.

Keep in mind that many of us on here are fanatics and perfectionists. We aren't looking for a sled that just works well (as the Apex does IMO 100% stock right from Yamaha - at least once you get the rear spring adjusted to Yamaha's 40-45 mm spec), we're looking for perfection. We want everything dialed in "just right" to get the most out of our sleds for the way we ride (some want cornering and handling like myself, some want to be the fastest on the lake, etc.).

Looking at your signature you've got a nice setup. Find some snow and go riding. If the snow conditions are good I expect you'll be extremely happy with your sled.