Interesting clutch stuff, Viper clutches & floating secondary

[Turboflash]

Was there any change in holeshot with the lighter secondary spring? I'm probably preaching to the choir, but it's a fine line easing up on the spring and not having the belt pulled deeper into the secondary with good traction on a holeshot.

Weights had a heavy tip bias which helps to not cause a bad holeshot. Holeshot was probably not quite as good but still acceptable. Could get it back with a helix change.

 

[KnappAttack]

So just in from doing a bit of testing today on the snow we have here. I started out with Yamaha Black/White Stock Attak secondary spring set at 60 deg. with .060" shims behind helix so it does not coil bind. Had 78G in the arms, felt good pulling hard, little high on RPM, but oh boy does everything get warm! Belt 195*, drive clutch 160* secondary 145* lots of hard pulls in a row, 5 or 6 in a row if I recall. Clutches too hot for my liking. This Yamaha White secondary spring might be OK for the Yamaha 8JP or 8DN belts, but the XS825 sure does not seem to need all that secondary pressure, and can tell the response does not seem to be that great surprisingly.

Came back and put in the ProLine black secondary in at 95 and no shims (because it does not coil bind), it's equal to Dalton red at 65. so still had a bit more tension in it than I had been running at 80* and (80-240), at 95* its (85-255) on my scale, but if I go down to 90 its back real close to what I had been running at (82-242) and wanted a bit more torsion than I had been running, so just opted to leave it set on 95. Took all the weight out of the arms, 75G again and everything runs much cooler! and happier, RPM is a bit high and getting higher. Now turning close to 9000 on the 270 instead of the 300 tune, so belt is wearing in and coming up in RPM just as I thought it would, if it keeps rising I'll need to add weight or loosen secondary again, but this button secondary and XS825 does not like too much side pressure. It just gets everything hot.

It's amazing what you learn when you use the drill press scale on these different secondary combos. You can throw the torsion spring charts out the window because what the chart shows is not real life when you bolt it all together in the secondary. Springs you believe to be stiffer for the Yamaha are not and visa versa, spring dia. has a great effect on working side pressure the clutch sees, way more important than compression strength on a torsion spring scale or chart on a Yamaha spring. Going to the button secondary, RX-1 primary and XS825 belt combo has allowed me to go down greatly on the side pressure in the secondary and weights in the primary and still keep a hold on the belt.

 

[fatchance]

Was there any change in holeshot with the lighter secondary spring? I'm probably preaching to the choir, but it's a fine line easing up on the spring and not having the belt pulled deeper into the secondary with good traction on a holeshot.

I played around with lighter springs and lighter weights a lot last year while running the XS 825 and while the sled felt snappy once you were moving, I was surprised how much holeshot I was giving up with the light set up and the TD GPS proved it. That was on the 3 Bar 270R and 290R tune at the time

 

[STAIN]

I have got to fabracoble me up a secondary press/scale. Looks like it is proving to be a very valuable tuning tool.

 

[KnappAttack]

I have got to fabracoble me up a secondary press/scale. Looks like it is proving to be a very valuable tuning tool.

Also the best way to see if coil/hub bind is happening and when. Quite telling really!

 

[sideshowBob]

Just think how many clutching issues like poor top end ect were occurring in the past as a result of secondary spring coil bind and helix hub interference on Yamaha's . This is an issue that many of us discovered through trial and error years ago when the current style clutches first showed up on the 1995 Vmax4. Good to see a measurable technique to identify interference issues.

 

[KnappAttack]

I played around with lighter springs and lighter weights a lot last year while running the XS 825 and while the sled felt snappy once you were moving, I was surprised how much holeshot I was giving up with the light set up and the TD GPS proved it. That was on the 3 Bar 270R and 290R tune at the time

I'd agree with that using the typical combos on the Winder clutches, I found the same thing, but these old clutches bite the belt much harder for some reason I have yet to put my finger on. It's not making sense to me just yet. It acts heavier than the Winder stuff and not lighter. I get WAY less belt slip down low with this combo than anything I've ran in the past. It is really working the engine hard from a dig. I need to switch to a Yamaha belt and determine if its the belt or the clutches responsible for most of it, but I really don't want to mess up a good thing here. And the rollers are not getting hammered and all discolored like the winder clutch did either. I don't yet get the reason why this is working as good as it is with seemingly such light weight in the primary along with light and aggressive secondary setups.

We have another well known member/tuner testing the same combo I'm using here and I'm anxious to see if he ends up with the same findings I'm coming up with. He will be geared higher though and really be putting it thru the test taxing the belt.

I'm also PM'ing with another fella who has been running this old clutch combo on the winder for many miles with success keeping rollers and belts in it. He's been running the 8DN and is also finding he can't pull as much weight as he was running with the Winder clutches, which sound backwards to me with the Winder arms + rollers being placed further from post center line. I'm guessing the old secondary with light settings combined with the old primary must have something to do with it.

It's not making much sense to me yet and I don't think it will until I start swapping parts around, but then my experiment goes out the window on roller and belt longevity. Not sure which is more important to me right now, I would like to know the answers and reasons. Season is still early and hoping for snow that seems to be no where in sight yet for me.

 

[twyztid]

I'd agree with that using the typical combos on the Winder clutches, I found the same thing, but these old clutches bite the belt much harder for some reason I have yet to put my finger on. It's not making sense to me just yet. It acts heavier than the Winder stuff and not lighter. I get WAY less belt slip down low with this combo than anything I've ran in the past. It is really working the engine hard from a dig. I need to switch to a Yamaha belt and determine if its the belt or the clutches responsible for most of it, but I really don't want to mess up a good thing here. And the rollers are not getting hammered and all discolored like the winder clutch did either. I don't yet get the reason why this is working as good as it is with seemingly such light weight in the primary along with light and aggressive secondary setups.

We have another well known member/tuner testing the same combo I'm using here and I'm anxious to see if he ends up with the same findings I'm coming up with. He will be geared higher though and really be putting it thru the test taxing the belt.

I'm also PM'ing with another fella who has been running this old clutch combo on the winder for many miles with success keeping rollers and belts in it. He's been running the 8DN and is also finding he can't pull as much weight as he was running with the Winder clutches, which sound backwards to me with the Winder arms + rollers being placed further from post center line. I'm guessing the old secondary with light settings combined with the old primary must have something to do with it.

It's not making much sense to me yet and I don't think it will until I start swapping parts around, but then my experiment goes out the window on roller and belt longevity. Not sure which is more important to me right now, I would like to know the answers and reasons. Season is still early and hoping for snow that seems to be no where in sight yet for me.

Do you think the extra belt grab down low has anything to do with the fact that the button clutch will have more friction on the buttons to helix vs. the rollers to helix on a roller clutch?

 

[74Nitro]

Strange to me why some have poor roller life and others not.
Yesterday I changed the original rollers in my buds 17 Winder for the first time. 7800 kms, and they actually could have went more still, I just want to play it safe.
First year stock, the last 2 tuned running 260-270 most of the time with Dalton weights.

 

[fatchance]

I found the same thing 74Nitro. I replaced the primary rollers only because I purchased new TP rollers figuring they would be better overall. My stock rollers were fine at 3500 miles. Been tuned all along with the big tunes and using very aggressive set up. It really does seem like it's luck of the draw with all the common issues that arise.

As far as snow goes Mike, I'm just downright depressed at this point. I have the sled torn apart for some maintenance and there's absolutely no hurry at all to put it back together because there's barely any snow on the ground and lots of rain in the forecast. You do have me looking at my Attak sitting beside the Winder like those are parts ripe for the taking though! Now if I only bought that Viper a while back, I'd be all set! Lol

 

[ClutchMaster]

Mike,
This is some awsome testing!
Let me say I never like the way the 8DN slipped down low on my machine. It’s so hard I would always get sheave wear low in the primary. It has awsome feel on the trail tho, but it’s slipping. That’s why I’ve been trying to get you and Beerman to run this belt the past few years!
I also feel this belts helps prevent slipping on the big end too, using it I was able to go to a 180/410 primary spring (higher finish rate) and knock back down to the Cat green secondary spring that runs much cooler down low.

 

[KnappAttack]

Do you think the extra belt grab down low has anything to do with the fact that the button clutch will have more friction on the buttons to helix vs. the rollers to helix on a roller clutch?

It seems to me that the weight to roller relationship on the old clutch is different, on the winder drive clutch the sled would would move quite a ways before rolling over the stall and pulling the RPM down, on the RX clutch it hardly moves at all and rolls over the stall on the exact same DTYA-1 weight, it moves over the stall what I would call immediately and it should be riding on the stall longer due to the fact I have 15MM rollers in the RX clutch and not 14.5MM rollers! That tells me the arm to roller is different. Also add in the fact the belt bites very well on the sheaves it make the take off and shifting aggressive and smooth! The arms seem to un-tuck quicker in the RX clutch vs the winder making it more aggressive.

Strange to me why some have poor roller life and others not.
Yesterday I changed the original rollers in my buds 17 Winder for the first time. 7800 kms, and they actually could have went more still, I just want to play it safe.
First year stock, the last 2 tuned running 260-270 most of the time with Dalton weights.

I have a buddy that eats rollers so quick it would make your head spin, and the only difference between our sleds is he's running STM weights and Precision tunes and 3" noisemaker, I'm running Dalton arms, Hurricane tunes and quiet 2.5" muffler. You wouldn't think he would eat up rollers like candy but its unreal. I watched him eat a set of TP primary rollers in just one day! Takes a little longer on Yamaha rollers but not much. I at least went the season (1700 miles and they were toast, a new record for me) on stock rollers last year. Season before I'd only get 600 miles on a set of rollers.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

It seems to me that the weight to roller relationship on the old clutch is different, on the winder drive clutch the sled would would move quite a ways before rolling over the stall and pulling the RPM down, on the RX clutch it hardly moves at all and rolls over the stall on the exact same DTYA-1 weight, it moves over the stall what I would call immediately and it should be riding on the stall longer due to the fact I have 15MM rollers in the RX clutch and not 14.5MM rollers! That tells me the arm to roller is different. Also add in the fact the belt bites very well on the sheaves it make the take off and shifting aggressive and smooth! The arms seem to un-tuck quicker in the RX clutch vs the winder making it more aggressive.




I have a buddy that eats rollers so quick it would make your head spin, and the only difference between our sleds is he's running STM weights and Precision tunes and 3" noisemaker, I'm running Dalton arms, Hurricane tunes and quiet 2.5" muffler. You wouldn't think he would eat up rollers like candy but its unreal. I watched him eat a set of TP primary rollers in just one day! Takes a little longer on Yamaha rollers but not much. I at least went the season (1700 miles and they were toast, a new record for me) on stock rollers last year. Season before I'd only get 600 miles on a set of rollers.

Mike, i ran STMs for about 6o miles if i recall only.....and it wiped out my stock rollers that fast at 270hp!

Went to the TP rollers with Daltons and look perfect for over 4k miles.

Dan

 

[Doowithblue]

I figured for sure I'd be buying rollers for this season. But I checked my tp rollers the other day (leaving tomorrow) and they are like new 2000 miles. stm 60's, 825, no float, no adjuster, 911, glides, gr/wh/gr, dalton white @ 0/1, cat torlons and belt looks like I just put it on with over 1000 miles on it. dalton helix.
So I have no clue. I know guys that can eat rollers and belts on command as well.

 

[KnappAttack]

I figured for sure I'd be buying rollers for this season. But I checked my tp rollers the other day (leaving tomorrow) and they are like new 2000 miles. stm 60's, 825, no float, no adjuster, 911, glides, gr/wh/gr, dalton white @ 0/1, cat torlons and belt looks like I just put it on with over 1000 miles on it. dalton helix.
So I have no clue. I know guys that can eat rollers and belts on command as well.

I believe it has to do with the tune you are running and how hard on it a guy is too. Seems like tunes under 260 or so real HP don't have nearly the problems the big tunes do. I saw lots of stock rollers push the bushing out the side and quit rolling also, I would just push them over if they didn't flat spot and keep riding. Seems like one day rollers would be good the next they'd be toast.