Relax! Yamaha is not lying Down.

[MarkAttack]

Hitler wants an Apex not a Doo

 

[Sasquatch]

Whitedust, I agree with what you are saying 100%, and that is what sold us on Yamaha back in the early 2000's when they lead with them, and then later switched to nearly 100% 4-stroke. Reliability. And the 2 stroke guys that swear their sleds are just as reliable probably never put on the miles to prove that point. That market exist for guys like you and me, but it is a very small portion of the market, and probably why if and when Yamaha does release their own again, it will be a boutique sled that is pre-order only. The market will just not support mass production.

The issue that Yamaha found out is, you can't charge enough of a premium to make up for the lack of repeat purchase. That is one of the biggest reasons it has killed their market share. The very reason I have had the same Apex for as long as I have. It changed very minimally, and it ran as good or better than a new one on the show floor.

That's why I was saying the OEM's could not follow the way of Maytag. Remember the old ads of the Maytag repair man being the loneliest guy on the planet. Almost all products have to have a disposable life cycle of some sort. To some, it's the length of the warranty, to others its roughly double the length etc. I'm just throwing those out there, but shooting for a mileage that most riders never attain is tough to prove anymore.

Electrolux back in 1980 made a vacuum cleaner that they warrantied until the year 2000. I remember this ad as a kid. 20 years, and in that time, the thing looked like an antique, and new features came out that made folks want a new one even if it still sucked (in a good way) That's one example. And then there are TV's. I would love for my 1080p LCD to die, so that I had reason to replace it. As it has no value used. And I can't just throw it away.

Sleds have to last long enough to make the buyer feel like they got their money's worth. But not last longer than the original buyer would ever appreciate. This is just my businessmans opinion. As I will keep humping my Apex well past 10,000 miles again next year if it lets me. But I'm not the average buyer. That gained nothing for Yamaha's bottom line. As the SkiDoo owner that got 4500 miles out of his Etec in three years feels his machine is just as reliable. As he trades it off and it grenades for the next owner.

It's just an opinion, and i don't even like it in my eyes, as I like longevity. Yamaha is better off sticking with a bulletproof engine, that everyone in the business knows they can build and be an engine supplier. As the market as spoken with their dollars. They don't want to buy a 700lb bulletproof chassis anymore. They will give up reliability for lighter weight and design. Market share doesn't lie at this point.

Now the reason I left Doo was the engines did not last, the reason I left Cat was the engines did not last, the reason I bought a Yamaha was because the engines did last. The Cat had a better suspension then the Yamaha but the drive train was better on the Yamaha. Now the new Cat has a motor that will last but the drive train is still crap compared to the Yamaha. The reason i still ride a Yamaha is because of the durability.

I do agree the Yamaha durability is a two sided sword but the market is controlled by the magazines and advertising. They told us the Yamaha was inferior and too heavy. One final straw that broke the camels back was the fact that Yamaha could not build a suspension to save their soul. Even the Nytro was a flop and had no suspension that would impress. So the heavy sled campaign took on a life of its own from the inside. When the Yamaha riders began to regurgitate the magazines and competitors words the end was in site. Even though the Yamaha Apex was refined into the most durable machine out there they turned on it.

I have to agree with you in that people seem to be happy with buying a 2 stroke machine getting two years out of it and trade it in quick for a loss before it pops. Where that leaves 4 strokes I'm not sure but even Doo who was the biggest push against the heavy sled ( remember the ad of the Doo with two barbell weights pinned to the hood to represent a Yamaha) has now embraced the four stroke with first the 1200 and now the 900 and 900T.

So with the collapse of Yamaha Doo has set themselves up to take up the slack. They cover the bottom of the four stroke market and the middle. They have left the top to Cat with a Yamaha engine. Why? Because as much as the Cat Turbo riders want to believe they are hear to stay there existence is as fragile as the Apex before it. The Apex died because of a small market and no repeat customers but the 998T market is now flooded because only so many want the ultimate hyper sled. Its not an expanding market, like the Apex its a narrow one. Doo has the two stroke market which gives them a wide range of on/off/steep and deep riders that buy new ever couple years ( I know a few).

So Doo is in a better position to continue to rule the market and Cat maybe not. I myself got what I wanted a durable sled that is basically bullet proof and is a great trail riding machine. I just like to ride the trails, don't have to be the fastest but I am still fast, don't have to be the best off trail but I can go off trail, don't want to stand up ride and hammer the bumps so I'm fine with a slower speed over them. I ride for the pleasure of it. Its not a race every time I go out, I meet some of those on the wrong side of the corner way to much.

If Yamaha had built a pyramid frame sled with a 998 four, a Yamaha drive train, Cat suspension they would have cured the Apex's weak points and in my eyes it would have been the best sled on the snow. Too bad Yamaha is not in charge. Too bad they got to the point of shutting down production and becoming an engine builder only. The tribe has spoken!

 

[Sasquatch]

What if The Cat and Doo Riders are as Brand Loyal as some of the Yamaha owners are on here? They won't change brands no matter what.. Very few sleds are used for hard core racing.. I head the Speed limit for sleds in Ontario is 50 KPH .. even on Lakes.. that's insane..
There was over 100 Brands of snowmobiles now there are 3.5
It costs Millions to develop a new Sled.. Cats weakness was quality .. and Yamaha's was weight and outdated suspension .. The Two worked together and came out with a "I assume " Durable lighter weight more reliable sled that handles well

Yep 30mph but no one follows it except around towns. Speed limit is only on the OFC groomed and maintained trails.

 

[MarkAttack]

Now the reason I left Doo was the engines did not last, the reason I left Cat was the engines did not last, the reason I bought a Yamaha was because the engines did last. The Cat had a better suspension then the Yamaha but the drive train was better on the Yamaha. Now the new Cat has a motor that will last but the drive train is still crap compared to the Yamaha. The reason i still ride a Yamaha is because of the durability.

I do agree the Yamaha durability is a two sided sword but the market is controlled by the magazines and advertising. They told us the Yamaha was inferior and too heavy. One final straw that broke the camels back was the fact that Yamaha could not build a suspension to save their soul. Even the Nytro was a flop and had no suspension that would impress. So the heavy sled campaign took on a life of its own from the inside. When the Yamaha riders began to regurgitate the magazines and competitors words the end was in site. Even though the Yamaha Apex was refined into the most durable machine out there they turned on it.

I have to agree with you in that people seem to be happy with buying a 2 stroke machine getting two years out of it and trade it in quick for a loss before it pops. Where that leaves 4 strokes I'm not sure but even Doo who was the biggest push against the heavy sled ( remember the ad of the Doo with two barbell weights pinned to the hood to represent a Yamaha) has now embraced the four stroke with first the 1200 and now the 900 and 900T.

So with the collapse of Yamaha Doo has set themselves up to take up the slack. They cover the bottom of the four stroke market and the middle. They have left the top to Cat with a Yamaha engine. Why? Because as much as the Cat Turbo riders want to believe they are hear to stay there existence is as fragile as the Apex before it. The Apex died because of a small market and no repeat customers but the 998T market is now flooded because only so many want the ultimate hyper sled. Its not an expanding market, like the Apex its a narrow one. Doo has the two stroke market which gives them a wide range of on/off/steep and deep riders that buy new ever couple years ( I know a few).

So Doo is in a better position to continue to rule the market and Cat maybe not. I myself got what I wanted a durable sled that is basically bullet proof and is a great trail riding machine. I just like to ride the trails, don't have to be the fastest but I am still fast, don't have to be the best off trail but I can go off trail, don't want to stand up ride and hammer the bumps so I'm fine with a slower speed over them. I ride for the pleasure of it. Its not a race every time I go out, I meet some of those on the wrong side of the corner way to much.

If Yamaha had built a pyramid frame sled with a 998 four, a Yamaha drive train, Cat suspension they would have cured the Apex's weak points and in my eyes it would have been the best sled on the snow. Too bad Yamaha is not in charge. Too bad they got to the point of shutting down production and becoming an engine builder only. The tribe has spoken!

I just learned that the Yamaha Snowmobile Factory was wiped out by a Tsunami .. Cat was Struggling and Yamaha sled sales were low.. The Cat Yamaha merger makes sense to me.
If Yamaha wants to step up their Snowmobile game they need to Build a Factory in the USA in the Snow Belt and hire some Snowmobile/Enthusiast/ Engineers..

Skidoo bought and built a World Class Engine plant in Austria too .. The build small Air Plane engines cart racing engines Motorcycle engines ect..

How about a 2006 Apex with 958 Miles for $5,000.00 ???

https://www.ulmerracing.com/search/inventory/availability/In Stock/usage/Used

 

[tommyt5078]

Up where I ride, I do see a "pile" of old 2S's, but mostly on the "local trails" rather than the ITS trails, and I also see a "pile" of them being towed home on a regular basis. You can buy and sell them cheap in the local on-line classifieds, and sometimes you get what you pay for.

I average 2,000 miles a year, and this year was nearly 3,500 miles. I bought a 2019 Sidewinder and financed it for 3 years at 0% through Yamaha. At the end of the 3 years, I expect my SW to have 8-9,000 miles on it, and conservatively, I expect it will still be worth @$7,000+ in trade, or @$8,500+ in private sale. What would you give me for a 3 year old 2S Polaris or Ski Doo with 8-9,000 miles on it?

The right Ski doo will have value still!

 

[Big_Phil]

I Agree, if you are buying a new sled every 3-5 years then it does not really matter if you buy a 2 stroke, you will save money and go about the same distance as if you had bought a 4 stroke, 2 stroke owners are getting the mileage out of their sleds now a days without to much trouble except for a few bad apples in the barrel, why pay 18 grand+ for a new 4 stroke sled when you can pay 14 grand for a lighter 2 stroke and still go the distance and have warranty, there is one heck of a pile of old 2 strokes still running on the trails now a day's.

I think this only applies if youre buying a lower powered touring sled and just cruise around. Polaris 800/850s seem to only last like 6000kms on average, plus they are slow turds. I did over 5000 kms this year on my sidewinder. Its never ran better at over 11000kms now, and Its still worth about as much as a brand new Polaris 800.

 

[Sasquatch]

I just learned that the Yamaha Snowmobile Factory was wiped out by a Tsunami .. Cat was Struggling and Yamaha sled sales were low.. The Cat Yamaha merger makes sense to me.
If Yamaha wants to step up their Snowmobile game they need to Build a Factory in the USA in the Snow Belt and hire some Snowmobile/Enthusiast/ Engineers..

Skidoo bought and built a World Class Engine plant in Austria too .. The build small Air Plane engines cart racing engines Motorcycle engines ect..

How about a 2006 Apex with 958 Miles for $5,000.00 ???

https://www.ulmerracing.com/search/inventory/availability/In Stock/usage/Used

Or buy Cat from Textron and run the show.

 

[Sasquatch]

I think this only applies if youre buying a lower powered touring sled and just cruise around. Polaris 800/850s seem to only last like 6000kms on average, plus they are slow turds. I did over 5000 kms this year on my sidewinder. Its never ran better at over 11000kms now, and Its still worth about as much as a brand new Polaris 800.

Its only worth as much as someone is willing to pay. With leftover Winders that price goes down.

 

[STAIN]

Very few leftover Winders here in the States

 

[whitedust1]

Very few leftover Winders here in the States

Good how about Tcats?

 

[MarkAttack]

Very few leftover Winders here in the States

I just checked the Inventory of to Dealers near me in SW MI they are listing every single model of Yamaha and Cat in stock.. My guess is that they don't phyiscally have every model and color in stock but Cat or some one does and they can get it for you ..

2019 2018 even some 2017 and 2016 Models.. The New Snowmobile market is very limited.. seems I read a while ago that the Mountain Segment has really grown .. Also a Snowmobile Video vlogger says the Utility Market is Huge in Northern Canada AK ect..

 

[MarkAttack]

The New E-tech 850 has oil Injection to the PTO shaft bearing .. the lower rod bearing . cast iron ring insert and a more porous cylinder plating to hold more oil .. Coated Piston sleeve ect..
Now do all the modern sleds shut down before they overheat or what ?

 

[STAIN]

I just checked the Inventory of to Dealers near me in SW MI they are listing every single model of Yamaha and Cat in stock.. My guess is that they don't phyiscally have every model and color in stock but Cat or some one does and they can get it for you ..

2019 2018 even some 2017 and 2016 Models.. The New Snowmobile market is very limited.. seems I read a while ago that the Mountain Segment has really grown .. Also a Snowmobile Video vlogger says the Utility Market is Huge in Northern Canada AK ect..

Did you use the "search dealer inventory" from the Yamaha website?
I did and if it is to be believed, there are @ 21 used trail/crossover 2019 Sidewinders in the country. 13 2018 Mountain Sidewinders and 1 2019 mountain.

 

[MarkAttack]

I am the second skier in this 40 second video .. I had a great run but they didn't show that..

https://www.bitchute.com/video/d8nTuwfT0rrg/

 

[MarkAttack]

Its only worth as much as someone is willing to pay. With leftover Winders that price goes down.

Last Summer they were like $1150 or $1200 New I was really Surprised..

I have a friend who rides his Yamaha 4 strokes about 5,000 per season .. He always sells his sled and buys a new 1-2 year sled on sale.. He is always finding deals on the Internet..