Starting over....lol!

[Doc Harley]

You guys have probably had enough. But if fact, I'm starting to understand things. I needed to try the bigger tunes in order to see what's what. Not a huge fan of the minimal amount of Boostane needed to keep deto light in check.
To achieve my goals (leave the line hard & 125mph on top) I believe they can be accomplished with the SM tunes 250/260. Horsepower alone will not accomplish this, it's more about traction. I'd give up mph to achieve the best holeshot.
Now I understand I do not have a performance muffler. But I'm sure it's better than stock.
So my question is this....
Has anyone put a turbo style muffler on a SM tune and verify AFR readings? Is it still in the range of being safe?

 

[Big_Phil]

137s are hard to hook up with trail studs. Anything you do to make it hookup will be detrimental to ride and handling. Stud the outside bars. Take the blocks out of the rear, maybe even run 1 chisel per bar. At least 1/2 inch penetration on studs.

My brother had a couple 137 winders and they just don’t transfer and hook. The 129 are faster out of the hole on hard pack or a plowed road. They just transfer and hook while a 137 with the same setup and studs will just spin. He got tired of losing to me all the time so he ended up buying a 129 as well.

 

[Upstater57]

5 studs per bar at least .1575 with blocks pulled (leave the bar) and a stiffer spring in the front of the skid will probably hook pretty well. Mine hooks hard and lifts the front end almost too much with this set up. (with stock Tcat gears)

 

[Doc Harley]

137s are hard to hook up with trail studs. Anything you do to make it hookup will be detrimental to ride and handling. Stud the outside bars. Take the blocks out of the rear, maybe even run 1 chisel per bar. At least 1/2 inch penetration on studs.

My brother had a couple 137 winders and they just don’t transfer and hook. The 129 are faster out of the hole on hard pack or a plowed road. They just transfer and hook while a 137 with the same setup and studs will just spin. He got tired of losing to me all the time so he ended up buying a 129 as well.

Please, I mean no disrespect. But someone wasn't trying hard enough.
My 137" (stock power) would leave prepared 850's out of the gate & done.
It was very discouraging for them for the next 600' ++ as they couldn't power around me.

 

[Doc Harley]

5 studs per bar at least .1575 with blocks pulled (leave the bar) and a stiffer spring in the front of the skid will probably hook pretty well. Mine hooks hard and lifts the front end almost too much with this set up. (with stock Tcat gears)

Yes! I've already went with 1.63" trail studs with angled backers up the gut.
I wonder if straight 1.575" on the outside would work??? If so, which Woody's stud?

 

[Big_Phil]

Please, I mean no disrespect. But someone wasn't trying hard enough.
My 137" (stock power) would leave prepared 850's out of the gate & done.
It was very discouraging for them for the next 600' ++ as they couldn't power around me.

I’m just going by our experiences. The 137 wasn’t slow, just on hard pack conditions the 129 would always hook better. And get a couple sleds ahead of the 137. From a roll we would be the same too. L On loose snow conditions, the 137 would be slightly quicker than the 129.

 

[Motorhead]

You guys have probably had enough. But if fact, I'm starting to understand things. I needed to try the bigger tunes in order to see what's what. Not a huge fan of the minimal amount of Boostane needed to keep deto light in check.
To achieve my goals (leave the line hard & 125mph on top) I believe they can be accomplished with the SM tunes 250/260. Horsepower alone will not accomplish this, it's more about traction. I'd give up mph to achieve the best holeshot.
Now I understand I do not have a performance muffler. But I'm sure it's better than stock.
So my question is this....
Has anyone put a turbo style muffler on a SM tune and verify AFR readings? Is it still in the range of being safe?

View attachment 171695View attachment 171696

That part of your question concerning utilizing a non stock muffler on a sm tune, and verifying AFR readings is very intriguing to me.

I ran 3 different sm tunes with a Smm but did not have an AFR gauge to verify what range they ran at, and my only protection against any lean problems, was the knock light protection!

My dealer put out many of these tune packages, with the use of a TD flash and his locally done smm! They were, Ecotrail, PowerTrail, and the MS16 tunes for both 2 & 3 bar! I’ve had the Ecotrail, MS16 2 bar and MS16 3 bar, all non header tunes!

He ran it by TD and because his smm utilized the stock 2” inlet, to a 3” core and outlet, it was said that it wouldn’t allow for much more free flow! Many of these packages are still out there and I’ve never heard of any motor problems because of them!

Then last year when I was asking questions to TD, pertaining to a free MS17 upgrade with the sales of their SQ mufflers, it was said that 16 and 17 was the same tune!

So for a while, I was going to just add the SQ2.5”. They later retracted that statement when speaking with another rep, they weren’t sure!

But what I do know is, without an AFR gauge, one has no way of knowing proper AFR ratio, and for one of those an O2 sensor and some dc is needed!

I do not want something else to watch while turning on, speedo, rpm’s and boost is already too much! So those in the know will tell you data logging is where it’s at!

Sure would be interested in hearing if anyone had tried 16 with 2.5” or 3” and what the readings were!

 

[74Nitro]

Yes! I've already went with 1.63" trail studs with angled backers up the gut.
I wonder if straight 1.575" on the outside would work??? If so, which Woody's stud?
View attachment 171698

I know those are new studs, but I bet even new studs can be made sharper with a stud sharpener tool.
Keep them super sharp, it will be the difference between cutting a T-bone with a steak knife compared to a butter knife.
Watch this video, skis barely lift, maybe an inch with anti-lag.

 

[Doc Harley]

I’m just going by our experiences. The 137 wasn’t slow, just on hard pack conditions the 129 would always hook better. And get a couple sleds ahead of the 137. From a roll we would be the same too. L On loose snow conditions, the 137 would be slightly quicker than the 129.

137" stock power, suspension adjustments & 144 1.5" trail studs.
I'm pretty sure the 850's & other winders thought I was BSing them. Like I had a stock muffler tune. Idk. Lol.

 

[Doc Harley]

That part of your question concerning utilizing a non stock muffler on a sm tune, and verifying AFR readings is very intriguing to me.

I ran 3 different sm tunes with a Smm but did not have an AFR gauge to verify what range they ran at, and my only protection against any lean problems, was the knock light protection!

My dealer put out many of these tune packages, with the use of a TD flash and his locally done smm! They were, Ecotrail, PowerTrail, and the MS16 tunes for both 2 & 3 bar! I’ve had the Ecotrail, MS16 2 bar and MS16 3 bar, all non header tunes!

He ran it by TD and because his smm utilized the stock 2” inlet, to a 3” core and outlet, it was said that it wouldn’t allow for much more free flow! Many of these packages are still out there and I’ve never heard of any motor problems because of them!

Then last year when I was asking questions to TD, pertaining to a free MS17 upgrade with the sales of their SQ mufflers, it was said that 16 and 17 was the same tune!

So for a while, I was going to just add the SQ2.5”. They later retracted that statement when speaking with another rep, they weren’t sure!

But what I do know is, without an AFR gauge, one has no way of knowing proper AFR ratio, and for one of those an O2 sensor and some dc is needed!

I do not want something else to watch while turning on, speedo, rpm’s and boost is already too much! So those in the know will tell you data logging is where it’s at!

Sure would be interested in hearing if anyone had tried 16 with 2.5” or 3” and what the readings were!

Great read Motorhead. I'm positive others are running some sort of pm on non pm tunes. Another member suggested it to me, and I believe it's not as bad as some would suggest. Especially with my low performing muffler. Lol.
Would be nice to see some AFR ratios. Just to help swallow the pill.
I am like you in that I have a hard enough time seeing the tach and boost gauges.
I'm near sighted and wear corrective lenses. The struggles I go thru....lol.

 

[Doc Harley]

I know those are new studs, but I bet even new studs can be made sharper with a stud sharpener tool.
Keep them super sharp, it will be the difference between cutting a T-bone with a steak knife compared to a butter knife.
Watch this video, skis barely lift, maybe an inch with anti-lag.

I have a Woody's, as you suggested last time.
And people don't think I listen....

 

[Doc Harley]

I know those are new studs, but I bet even new studs can be made sharper with a stud sharpener tool.
Keep them super sharp, it will be the difference between cutting a T-bone with a steak knife compared to a butter knife.
Watch this video, skis barely lift, maybe an inch with anti-lag.

That video is what I strive for. To a lesser degree of course.
Sounds like he's coming off at an idle.

 

[Doc Harley]

This is my fav video of TD getting it done.

 

[number1kyster]

137s are hard to hook up with trail studs. Anything you do to make it hookup will be detrimental to ride and handling. Stud the outside bars. Take the blocks out of the rear, maybe even run 1 chisel per bar. At least 1/2 inch penetration on studs.

My brother had a couple 137 winders and they just don’t transfer and hook. The 129 are faster out of the hole on hard pack or a plowed road. They just transfer and hook while a 137 with the same setup and studs will just spin. He got tired of losing to me all the time so he ended up buying a 129 as well.

This has been my experience as well.

 

[sideshowBob]

Great read Motorhead. I'm positive others are running some sort of pm on non pm tunes. Another member suggested it to me, and I believe it's not as bad as some would suggest. Especially with my low performing muffler. Lol.
Would be nice to see some AFR ratios. Just to help swallow the pill.

Earlier in the year I was troubleshooting a boost creep issue on my SW and I actually tried selecting the stock muffler tune bundle using my TD 3" stock mod muffler and carefully monitored my AFRs as well as data logged with Boostane in the fuel.[I never would have tried this without closed loop]
The sleds AFRs seemed OK but I have closed loop and it was adding up to 25% fuel at full throttle to keep the AFRs close to the tune requirements so I would caution against trying this without closed loop.