Team Primary on Winder secondary mocked up

[1049triple]

sledding rocks, what angle helix do you run?

 

[sledding rocks]

straight 35 ,

 

[KnappAttack]

Lighter springs with what helix? I agree heavier with a traditional helix say a 37/35 or 39/35 or straight 35. But a steeper straight or maybe even reverse helix you CAN go to much tension in the secondary. Not saying guys shouldn’t go heavier on the tunes but be careful going to far. Helix angles will effect this spring tension in secondary. By no means questioning Knapp’s knowledge. Helix your using with these heavy springs needs to be mentioned.

I started with a 41-37 and went down to the straight 35 for the Dalton weights With the EPI purple set at 0-1, which is the same side force as the Dalton white at 9-1 how I measure it in the press on the scale. I may have found a wee bit better power to the ground with a straight 37 or 38, but I don't have one in the box yet, and the snow performance is better with less helix anyhow, so I'm cool with the 35 for now. This sled doesn't really care if its runs 8700 or 9000, so you can pretty much throw anything at it on the big tunes and it will haul the mail if RPMing in that range.

With what I've seen in the field, and what I heard from a fellow who has been on the track dyno. The 998 with big tunes is like a Honey Badger, it just doesn't really give a crap what helix is in it, if the RPM is low or high, it pretty much will work with anything you throw at it. 35, 38, 40 it just doesn't care as long as you can get rid of the slipping in the clutches. More helix is going to need more side pressure to keep from slipping, harder belts will need more side pressure etc. The big tunes will drive right thru the driven and slip the belt there with too light of a spring. I'm finding better temps and performance using heavy Cat springs and I'm using the 8DN now with better temps and better consistency with RPM holding run after run. I'm also geared higher with the 22-41 and the longer 8DN belt which is actually going to loose some OD, which is fine because of it being longer is also starting in a lower ratio.

You might find that with stickier belts that heavy springs may not work well and will over clamp the belt lowering RPM and making more heat. What I can tell you is for drag racing and speed running we always found better performance running harder belts and clutching to them over using softer belts too. ALWAYS, without exception they would be faster and quicker when clutched for, and the more power you make the more you needed harder belts so they don't distort side to side with higher gripping forces applied. Soft belts distort and flex when pinched, hard belts don't, hence needing more clamping force applied. Hard belts also don't stay stuck in the sheaves on the way out because they stay firm when being pinched.

 

[jonlafon1]

I started with a 41-37 and went down to the straight 35 for the Dalton weights With the EPI purple set at 0-1, which is the same side force as the Dalton white at 9-1 how I measure it in the press on the scale. I may have found a wee bit better power to the ground with a straight 37 or 38, but I don't have one in the box yet, and the snow performance is better with less helix anyhow, so I'm cool with the 35 for now. This sled doesn't really care if its runs 8700 or 9000, so you can pretty much throw anything at it on the big tunes and it will haul the mail if RPMing in that range.

With what I've seen in the field, and what I heard from a fellow who has been on the track dyno. The 998 with big tunes is like a Honey Badger, it just doesn't really give a crap what helix is in it, if the RPM is low or high, it pretty much will work with anything you throw at it. 35, 38, 40 it just doesn't care as long as you can get rid of the slipping in the clutches. More helix is going to need more side pressure to keep from slipping, harder belts will need more side pressure etc. The big tunes will drive right thru the driven and slip the belt there with too light of a spring. I'm finding better temps and performance using heavy Cat springs and I'm using the 8DN now with better temps and better consistency with RPM holding run after run. I'm also geared higher with the 22-41 and the longer 8DN belt which is actually going to loose some OD, which is fine because of it being longer is also starting in a lower ratio.

You might find that with stickier belts that heavy springs may not work well and will over clamp the belt lowering RPM and making more heat. What I can tell you is for drag racing and speed running we always found better performance running harder belts and clutching to them over using softer belts too. ALWAYS, without exception they would be faster and quicker when clutched for, and the more power you make the more you needed harder belts so they don't distort side to side with higher gripping forces applied. Soft belts distort and flex when pinched, hard belts don't, hence needing more clamping force applied. Hard belts also don't stay stuck in the sheaves on the way out because they stay firm when being pinched.

Honey Badger I like that. You might be onto something about it not caring about helix angle. Just belt slip. Adjust the weights for rpm with set helix and make sure your spring is heavy enough to squeeze the belt so it doesn’t slip. Thanks for info.

 

[KnappAttack]

Honey Badger I like that. You might be onto something about it not caring about helix angle. Just belt slip. Adjust the weights for rpm with set helix and make sure your spring is heavy enough to squeeze the belt so it doesn’t slip. Thanks for info.

Just keep in mind helix angle is going to also have a major effect belt squeeze in the driven. Lower angles are going to grip the belt harder. Had one fellow PM me when using the 41-37 and even a stiff EPI purple set at 0-1 and it blackened the driven on the top end and blew the 8DN. Went to the 35 and the slip went away with same spring and setting.

When he was using the 41-37 he found the same weird vibration I was experiencing which was secondary belt slippage I though to be track vibration. So either back off on the helix or add even more spring side pressure, maybe both to compensate for that type of slippage.

 

[snowdust]

I'm trying a straight 38 this weekend with the Dalton white @ 0-1. Should be close based on everything I have read. Thanks for all the posts. I plan to run the straight 35 and Dalton white @ 9-1 on the second day of the trip to compare. I'll post back after the trip. (planned to test last weekend but had my daughter on with me so no time to test)

 

[ClutchMaster]

I started with a 41-37 and went down to the straight 35 for the Dalton weights With the EPI purple set at 0-1, which is the same side force as the Dalton white at 9-1 how I measure it in the press on the scale. I may have found a wee bit better power to the ground with a straight 37 or 38, but I don't have one in the box yet, and the snow performance is better with less helix anyhow, so I'm cool with the 35 for now. This sled doesn't really care if its runs 8700 or 9000, so you can pretty much throw anything at it on the big tunes and it will haul the mail if RPMing in that range.

With what I've seen in the field, and what I heard from a fellow who has been on the track dyno. The 998 with big tunes is like a Honey Badger, it just doesn't really give a crap what helix is in it, if the RPM is low or high, it pretty much will work with anything you throw at it. 35, 38, 40 it just doesn't care as long as you can get rid of the slipping in the clutches. More helix is going to need more side pressure to keep from slipping, harder belts will need more side pressure etc. The big tunes will drive right thru the driven and slip the belt there with too light of a spring. I'm finding better temps and performance using heavy Cat springs and I'm using the 8DN now with better temps and better consistency with RPM holding run after run. I'm also geared higher with the 22-41 and the longer 8DN belt which is actually going to loose some OD, which is fine because of it being longer is also starting in a lower ratio.

You might find that with stickier belts that heavy springs may not work well and will over clamp the belt lowering RPM and making more heat. What I can tell you is for drag racing and speed running we always found better performance running harder belts and clutching to them over using softer belts too. ALWAYS, without exception they would be faster and quicker when clutched for, and the more power you make the more you needed harder belts so they don't distort side to side with higher gripping forces applied. Soft belts distort and flex when pinched, hard belts don't, hence needing more clamping force applied. Hard belts also don't stay stuck in the sheaves on the way out because they stay firm when being pinched.

Good stuff here! ^^^^^
Thanks for the info Mike!
I would like to see someone try the STM orange and 41-37 combo. I just switched to that spring in my stm secondary and I like it better than the green cat spring. It’s a beast!
I’m betting this would work well with a 280~290 tune. Should keep you off the limiter

 

[KnappAttack]

.

Good stuff here! ^^^^^
Thanks for the info Mike!
I would like to see someone try the STM orange and 41-37 combo. I just switched to that spring in my stm secondary and I like it better than the green cat spring. It’s a beast!
I’m betting this would work well with a 280~290 tune. Should keep you off the limiter

I don't have a STM orange here but I bet its like Cutlers Silver/White, and it is a bear of a spring. At what point though do we really wear on the secondary clutch bushings and rollers? I have already really worn on the updated stock rollers on the pin. Ordered up some Hi-Torque rollers, but not sure they'll be here for our trip North with mail and UPS delivery delays from the cold.

 

[Fast]

9-1 is less than 0-1.

Just got a call today from a fellow that had a Winder on the track Dyno. Maybe he'll post. I hope he does, because it confirms what I have found in the field testing a few weeks ago. Its good stuff.

Lighter springs are not doing well to keep a hold on the belt on the big tunes is what I've found.

Mike have you ever tried CV TECH power block 80 clutch? , dealer has one calibrated for $700 canadian they claim 10-15% faster from mid to top end and no rattle

 

[KnappAttack]

Mike have you ever tried CV TECH power block 80 clutch? , dealer has one calibrated for $700 canadian they claim 10-15% faster from mid to top end and no rattle

Have one here but haven't tried it yet. My Doo puller wouldn't work on it so I have yet to get a puller for it.

They have always worked great on the 1200's with the exception that I've broke a few spring cups on them, even with the proper PB springs in place. I know they will take the power of the big tunes, just not sure for how long they will take the big power without spring cup breakage and puck distortion. Time will tell I guess. Don't expect quicker or faster though.

On a stocker or 240 setup they will be great I know.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Not sure about wear issues? I was just figuring with thes big tunes guys would have trouble staying off the limiter with a 35 helix out of the hole. 41-37 would actually give you a little less secondary shift force at lower speeds, progressing to a 37 angle with the stiffer spring would give you increased tension at higher speeds.
As far as ultimate force on the rollers that would be at very low speeds and full throttle.
If you can’t stay off the limiter down low all weighted up, wouldn’t that actually be more secondary force on the rollers? Secondary not opening fast enough down low?

The big spring and 41/37 or 39/35 wouldn’t need as much initial spring wind up as the cat green. It would however provide more belt squeeze up top due to the higher spring rate. Seems like that’s where this Winder secondary needs it the most, upper shift range?

You can wind it less and still have good response, while staying off the limiter, at least that’s what I have found to be true.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Ratio is the wrong term, speeds would be better.

 

[johan]

Not sure about wear issues? I was just figuring with thes big tunes guys would have trouble staying off the limiter with a 35 helix out of the hole. 41-37 would actually give you a little less secondary shift force at lower speeds, progressing to a 37 angle with the stiffer spring would give you increased tension at higher speeds.
As far as ultimate force on the rollers that would be at very low speeds and full throttle.
If you can’t stay off the limiter down low all weighted up, wouldn’t that actually be more secondary force on the rollers? Secondary not opening fast enough down low?

The big spring and 41/37 or 39/35 wouldn’t need as much initial spring wind up as the cat green. It would however provide more belt squeeze up top due to the higher spring rate. Seems like that’s where this Winder secondary needs it the most, upper shift range?

You can wind it less and still have good response, while staying off the limiter, at least that’s what I have found to be true.

This is the helix i run just for this reason clutchmaster. I cant use the 35 at all as i hit the limiter straight away. I use tp orange spring on mine on 3+3. I gona test 2 cat springs to the weekend one cat red/White on 0+1 and the other one is a orange one. straight 39 works super to

 

[Srxspec]

Stm orange, if you hear a "shot around the world" don't worry, it was just the helix flying through the roof and this orange spring propelling it!

 

[ClutchMaster]

View attachment 145690 Stm orange, if you hear a "shot around the world" don't worry, it was just the helix flying through the roof and this orange spring propelling it!

Lmfao!
Yea that SOB is stiff one!
That’s what she said!