Thunder Products Orange Secondary spring **Update**

[**sj**]

The Dalton Black/Orange Dalton is not nearly as stiff as the all orange TP spring. The Dalton has only slightly more side force than the stock spring.
They are all black with just a stripe of orange on them. Easy to tell them apart that way.

IMO the TP orange and reverse angle helixs should not be used on any of the Hurricane Race tunes. Totally wrong setup that will only make heat and blow belts.

Heavy driven springs and not enough helix will make lots of heat and prevent shift out compared to softer springs and more aggressive helixs. Requires too much weight in the primary and bang, blown belt. Pinching the belt that hard in the driven to prevent shift out, is a stop gap measure for weak bottom and mid-range tunes.

That's about the most polite way I can state it.

If you have good bottom and mid range power, you don't need reverse angle helixs and mongo driven springs to get RPM, the tune will do that for you, and you can then get back to normal progressive angle helixs and reasonable driven springs with less tension.

good points...I know ben doesnt recommend this....and running my max spool 17 .....bottom and midrange was electric...I liked my straight 37 but didnt get enough time to run the bigger yet offering.....even with 192 lake racer studs...was violent in power...traction was the biggest issue...so far I like the thunder spring...but only compared to stock...

 

[ROCKERDAN]

The Dalton Black/Orange Dalton is not nearly as stiff as the all orange TP spring. The Dalton has only slightly more side force than the stock spring.
They are all black with just a stripe of orange on them. Easy to tell them apart that way.

IMO the TP orange and reverse angle helixs should not be used on any of the Hurricane Race tunes. Totally wrong setup that will only make heat and blow belts.

Heavy driven springs and not enough helix will make lots of heat and prevent shift out compared to softer springs and more aggressive helixs. Requires too much weight in the primary and bang, blown belt. Pinching the belt that hard in the driven to prevent shift out, is a stop gap measure for weak bottom and mid-range tunes.

That's about the most polite way I can state it.

If you have good bottom and mid range power, you don't need reverse angle helixs and mongo driven springs to get RPM, the tune will do that for you, and you can then get back to normal progressive angle helixs and reasonable driven springs with less tension.

Correct again Mike....

I ran my first test today with 240hp 2 runs....cranked to 270hp and blew the 150 mile ultimax, pulled it right apart. Way too much backpressure, and I had changed it from 60 to 50 degrees before any testing today.

I had already ordered the dalton black/with orange stripe spring and a progessive 39/35 helix from Dale 2 days ago and they will arrive tomorrow, but I wanted to test today with my STMs and tune. Im pretty close on the STMs on the 240 flash but need more weight for the 270. The CAI and stock modded TD muffler make this engine so damn crisp its like a whole new sled...I have some cool live data(video screenshot) of it all, even the belt blowing when it revved bigtime....Cool to watch using the iPhone video recording native program. Will be doing lots more of that as It makes it easy to look back at each run.

So, I know I need a tad more weight as Im flashing 9200 on 240hp, and flashing 9500 on 270hp, then it settles in around 8800 on 240hp and 9100 on 270hp. Showed Hi 14psi in 240hp and hi 16psi into 17psi for 270hp. Such cool tech for sure.

I need a tad more weight in heel and maybe a gram in mid. Tips are loaded with 2 Tung already, this tune makes some serous HP and pulls a crapload of weight....I will likely end up around 86grams if not more with these 60YS.

So, I mocked everthing up after cleaning out my belt cords....got a good video of float with OSP adjuster, and also a full shift video without springs, all looks fine there.

Im thinking of grabbing some 8DN belts since they are cheap. Wont bother with ultimax anymore i dont think as they are highest price out of all the belts. The orange and 33/35 will be going on down the road. Great before I ran the tune, but no way any reverse angle helix will work well with this big HP tune, it can pull much more helix now with this power at snap. Simply sick. I wonder if Ill ever keep a belt in this Hurricane monster.

Dan

 

[NOS-PRO]

The Dalton Black/Orange Dalton is not nearly as stiff as the all orange TP spring. The Dalton has only slightly more side force than the stock spring.
They are all black with just a stripe of orange on them. Easy to tell them apart that way.

IMO the TP orange and reverse angle helixs should not be used on any of the Hurricane Race tunes. Totally wrong setup that will only make heat and blow belts.

Heavy driven springs and not enough helix will make lots of heat and prevent shift out compared to softer springs and more aggressive helixs. Requires too much weight in the primary and bang, blown belt. Pinching the belt that hard in the driven to prevent shift out, is a stop gap measure for weak bottom and mid-range tunes.

That's about the most polite way I can state it.

If you have good bottom and mid range power, you don't need reverse angle helixs and mongo driven springs to get RPM, the tune will do that for you, and you can then get back to normal progressive angle helixs and reasonable driven springs with less tension.

In response to your Hurricane race tunes, is there a difference between the Hurricane race tunes and other tunes? If this is true, then EVO, TD and Precision should be seeing the same thing. I am flashed and many others are and not having problems. Clutches are luke warm after back to back pulls and high speed runs. So what gives?

 

[rtx moose]

glad I don't have a winder yet,seems to me the clutches are far from mastered yet!!!!

 

[NOS-PRO]

I am seeing something here now....the STM 60YS weights in RockerDan and DMCturbo's sleds are real problem childs with blowing belts. I'm seeing where a lot of weight in the primary is destroying belts....as like the heavy stock weights.

Throwing a lot of weight with a stiff primary spring and a stiffer secondary spring is not going to work. That clearly goes against Olav's clutching book.

 

[KnappAttack]

In response to your Hurricane race tunes, is there a difference between the Hurricane race tunes and other tunes? If this is true, then EVO, TD and Precision should be seeing the same thing. I am flashed and many others are and not having problems. Clutches are luke warm after back to back pulls and high speed runs. So what gives?

Yes, Hurricane Race tunes make full boost down low and in the mid and have way more bottom and mid-range power than the EVO. You guys with EVO's are the only one suggesting these reverse angle helixs and super heavy driven springs. The problem is people read this and just thro them in their sleds thinking their magic and end up with problems like blowing belts and excess heat.

I've ridden the EVO stage4, and there is no one home there down low and mid-range. That's why your needing the reverse angle helixs, straight helixs and heavy springs so you can get them to rev quicker down low and thru the mids.

Also you can't blame the drive clutch weights for blowing belts, because its a different curvature, some weights need more weight and some less because of the curvature, bottom line is the shift force to shift the drive clutch. Most of the problem with blowing belts is how much your holding the shift back in the driven and just stretching the belt for no reason. Clutching is finding that window where you provide only enough pressure to prevent belt slippage, stretching it beyond that is just inefficient, wastes power away and makes heat over pinching and just stretching the belt.

This efficiency window is not very wide, you have to hit it within that window or face blowing or slipping belts and wasted power.

 

[DMCTurbo]

I am seeing something here now....the STM 60YS weights in RockerDan and DMCturbo's sleds are real problem childs with blowing belts. I'm seeing where a lot of weight in the primary is destroying belts....as like the heavy stock weights.

Throwing a lot of weight with a stiff primary spring and a stiffer secondary spring is not going to work. That clearly goes against Olav's clutching book.

My primary spring is a 30/90, it's not stiff. I ran these weights and spring last year without issue. The spring may work for some but it's not working for me.

 

[staggs65]

I am seeing something here now....the STM 60YS weights in RockerDan and DMCturbo's sleds are real problem childs with blowing belts. I'm seeing where a lot of weight in the primary is destroying belts....as like the heavy stock weights.

Throwing a lot of weight with a stiff primary spring and a stiffer secondary spring is not going to work. That clearly goes against Olav's clutching book.

This seems like the obvious thing to me as well. And it's not that the STMs are a problem really. The TP orange seems to have been developed more around the HHs. Sure it can be used in other setups but it's not necessarily where it belongs. I've been running HHs for trail and radar and Heelclickers for grass for at least 15 years in my modified 2 strokes. Completely opposite setups, springs, helix, everything. They both work well but they need the complete setup.
I ran STMs on my Turbo Viper and got used to them so sticking with them on the Winder. I think theres too much intermingling of clutch setups going on here. My .02

 

[**sj**]

Slipping belts or lack of pressure blows them too... We've seen this before on the 1100's... Too little or too much...

 

[NOS-PRO]

This seems like the obvious thing to me as well. And it's not that the STMs are a problem really. The TP orange seems to have been developed more around the HHs. Sure it can be used in other setups but it's not necessarily where it belongs. I've been running HHs for trail and radar and Heelclickers for grass for at least 15 years in my modified 2 strokes. Completely opposite setups, springs, helix, everything. They both work well but they need the complete setup.
I ran STMs on my Turbo Viper and got used to them so sticking with them on the Winder. I think theres too much intermingling of clutch setups going on here. My .02

Definitely way too much

Different flashes, different hpr ratings, different clutch setups, different sleds, different tracks....etc.

 

[snowbeast]

Well I just reinstalled my TPI orange in my straight 38 STM helix wound to 50 degrees,and man it feels awesome,i just hope its good to my belt,and holds rpms I need,at least now I will see if I am holding the boost my EVO tune has,and my fuel is in a good range A/F wise.

 

[DC5]

Correct again Mike....

I ran my first test today with 240hp 2 runs....cranked to 270hp and blew the 150 mile ultimax, pulled it right apart. Way too much backpressure, and I had changed it from 60 to 50 degrees before any testing today.

I had already ordered the dalton black/with orange stripe spring and a progessive 39/35 helix from Dale 2 days ago and they will arrive tomorrow, but I wanted to test today with my STMs and tune. Im pretty close on the STMs on the 240 flash but need more weight for the 270. The CAI and stock modded TD muffler make this engine so damn crisp its like a whole new sled...I have some cool live data(video screenshot) of it all, even the belt blowing when it revved bigtime....Cool to watch using the iPhone video recording native program. Will be doing lots more of that as It makes it easy to look back at each run.

So, I know I need a tad more weight as Im flashing 9200 on 240hp, and flashing 9500 on 270hp, then it settles in around 8800 on 240hp and 9100 on 270hp. Showed Hi 14psi in 240hp and hi 16psi into 17psi for 270hp. Such cool tech for sure.

I need a tad more weight in heel and maybe a gram in mid. Tips are loaded with 2 Tung already, this tune makes some serous HP and pulls a crapload of weight....I will likely end up around 86grams if not more with these 60YS.

So, I mocked everthing up after cleaning out my belt cords....got a good video of float with OSP adjuster, and also a full shift video without springs, all looks fine there.

Im thinking of grabbing some 8DN belts since they are cheap. Wont bother with ultimax anymore i dont think as they are highest price out of all the belts. The orange and 33/35 will be going on down the road. Great before I ran the tune, but no way any reverse angle helix will work well with this big HP tune, it can pull much more helix now with this power at snap. Simply sick. I wonder if Ill ever keep a belt in this Hurricane monster.

Dan

Dan, between my LTX and my RTX I have over 4000km's on the Hurricane 280R tune and have not blown one belt, so its definitely possible. That includes a lot of snow drags and radar running.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Dan, between my LTX and my RTX I have over 4000km's on the Hurricane 280R tune and have not blown one belt, so its definitely possible. That includes a lot of snow drags and radar running.

Nick, you told me to run stock secondary, and I bet you are right. In other words, less backpressure.

Mike said it all, and my belt pulled in two in a short pull, no heat whatsoever....not at all slippage, it just pulled the belt apart until she snapped. Obviously far too much,even when I set it ahead of time to 50 degree(thinking it was a monster spring) as I knew it was over 26lbs backpressure.

Considering the stocker is a super easy secondary to open with little backpressure, I think we took things too far in the opposite direction. And so I had hoped 50 degree would be safer, but it still could not hold belt together.

On another note, why do the primary rollers look so bad already? Its like they are not rolling well....or evenly. Looks to me like the harmonics of the motor/clutches has the weights jumping around on rollers. My apex rollers always looked like one solid color on surface

Dan

 

[jonlafon1]

I am seeing something here now....the STM 60YS weights in RockerDan and DMCturbo's sleds are real problem childs with blowing belts. I'm seeing where a lot of weight in the primary is destroying belts....as like the heavy stock weights.

Throwing a lot of weight with a stiff primary spring and a stiffer secondary spring is not going to work. That clearly goes against Olav's clutching book.

I started last year with some first generation OSP weights that were similar in profile to stock. I have a post from last year were I mention How i started with the heavy profile weights and was running a lot of weight in primary. i blew two belts and feel the lighter weights or weights that are lighter but "act" heavier are the answer with the winder . especially flashed winders. Great post Nos I concur totally.

 

[sledding rocks]

Nick, you told me to run stock secondary, and I bet you are right. In other words, less backpressure.

Mike said it all, and my bet pulled in two in a short pull, no heat whatsoever....not at all slippage, it just pulled the belt apart until she snapped. Obviously far too much,even when I set it ahead of time to 50 degree(thinking it was a monster spring) as I knew it was over 26lbs backpressure.

Considering the stocker is a super easy secondary to open with little backpressure, I think we took things too far in the opposite direction. And so I had hoped 50 degree would be safer, but it still could not hold belt together.

On another note, why do the primary rollers look so bad already? Its like they are not rolling well....or evenly. Looks to me like the harmonics of the motor/clutches has the weights jumping around on rollers. My apex rollers always looked like one solid color on surface

Dan

yes the primary rollers look bad very quickly , but they seem to be fine , after putting 2500 miles on my sled last season I decided to change the rollers to new ones this season just because the old ones looked like they seen over 10000 miles , so I measured the new vs the old ones to find out they both were in spec of each other perfectly, meaning the old ones were still perfectly fine . I don't think Yamaha uses any special coating on there rollers to protect from any type of corrosion which makes them look like sh