Thunder Products Orange Secondary spring **Update**

[twyztid]

The reason that offset can have an effect on spring tension is that when your offset is too far out the belt puts more pressure on the inside sheave of secondary which is the moveable sheave, so it kinda helps push it open, this making the spring act softer. Many on here have not had the best luck with the gates carbon so Id say to avoid it. Looking at your clutch pics it looks like you had some slip at top end but the rest of the darker sheave appearance is likely rubber transfer from overclamping a soft belt at lower speeds. Not common to slip secondary early in the shift because of all the surface area. I had the same issue with the xs belt with too much tension. Id release tension and sheaves wouldnt be so dark at beginning of shift but slip near full shift. Like mentioned, every sled and setup, conditions, traction, and rider weight is different so increase wrap 10 degrees at a time checking heat to see if it improves, or gets worse and youll know what direction to go.

So your opinion is that I should reduce tension to 40 or increase tension to 60? I was at 50 before. I solved a hot clutch/belt issue with my turbo Viper by dropping from 50 to 40 with that same TP Orange spring

 

[KnappAttack]

I have a 270 Power Trail tune on my Sidewinder. Running TP Heavy Hitter weights, TP Orange primary spring, stock 35 helix, TP Orange Secondary spring wrapped at 3-2 (50). Offset is 58.9mm with no washers or clip.

Not sure if the darkened areas on the secondary sheaves are from a slipping belt (needing more wrap) or too much wrap. I've only ridden this sled about 375 miles yet. The sled has only about 780 miles on it. I was running a new Gates Carbon belt (leftover from my turbo Viper) but blew that belt at about 300 miles on it. Clutches were hot when the belt blew. I could only hold my fingers on them for around 3 seconds.

View attachment 160346

When I see that, I see slippage from the belt there from not enough side pressure in the secondary. After having a sled in here with TP clutching and the same spring, I scaled it on my drill press scale and we have it since wrapped it up to 90* wrap. He tried running it at 40 then 50 then 60 and it would just smear belts in the top end, but every time we wrapped it higher it got better. I set it to the same side pressure on the scale as I run the Dalton springs at.

We set the offset with the Hurricane bar and machined the secondary down to 58mm, wanted it a little less than that but that's where it ended up with the guy that machined it. Tried XS825 belts and doesn't matter, the sled refuses to keep a belt on for over a few hundred miles. It's just evil on belts. Next is to eliminate the secondary float as the owner is still using factory style washers for deflection on it. If that does not fix it, I'd imagine we'd have to look at a different primary. One step at a time until it's figured out.

 

[twyztid]

When I see that, I see slippage from the belt there from not enough side pressure in the secondary. After having a sled in here with TP clutching and the same spring, I scaled it on my drill press scale and we have it since wrapped it up to 90* wrap. He tried running it at 40 then 50 then 60 and it would just smear belts in the top end, but every time we wrapped it higher it got better. I set it to the same side pressure on the scale as I run the Dalton springs at.

We set the offset with the Hurricane bar and machined the secondary down to 58mm, wanted it a little less than that but that's where it ended up with the guy that machined it. Tried XS825 belts and doesn't matter, the sled refuses to keep a belt on for over a few hundred miles. It's just evil on belts. Next is to eliminate the secondary float as the owner is still using factory style washers for deflection on it. If that does not fix it, I'd imagine we'd have to look at a different primary. One step at a time until it's figured out.

Thanks for the reply. Did the clutches get cooler as you wrapped tighter?
I want to contact Thunder Products yet to hear what they have to say but it sounds like I will likely have to wrap it tighter. Sounds like I should start at 70. It worked well at 40 on my turbo Viper but this sled is a LOT more power. I am using the TP belt adjuster so I do not have any float.

I just bought a low-mile 2012 Vector primary that I will be installing for next season. I've only read good things about switching to the older primaries and my Sidewinder primary will have under 1000 miles on when removed so it will be worth more to try to sell it. I have read that the older primary clutches can reduce offset by 1.5mm. That may put me right where I need to be without machining the secondary (would end up at 57.4mm).

 

[TPAY243]

You really need to try different things and see what happens your going to get all kinds of different opinions when you ask a question. Not any two machines are the same so what works on one may not work on the others. What works on your Viper isn't going to work on your Winder there two different kinds of secondary. All it takes is about an hour to change that spring wrap a couple of times and you'll know what works and what doesn't. My sled is stock and not tuned so as far as the off set goes mine's close but not perfect and I feel it's not affecting the secondary spring performance yours might either way make small changes every time you go for a ride and write it down so you know what you changed and what effect it had.

 

[twyztid]

You really need to try different things and see what happens your going to get all kinds of different opinions when you ask a question. Not any two machines are the same so what works on one may not work on the others. What works on your Viper isn't going to work on your Winder there two different kinds of secondary. All it takes is about an hour to change that spring wrap a couple of times and you'll know what works and what doesn't. My sled is stock and not tuned so as far as the off set goes mine's close but not perfect and I feel it's not affecting the secondary spring performance yours might either way make small changes every time you go for a ride and write it down so you know what you changed and what effect it had.

I realize that and I would do the testing if it were in a different part of the season but I have one last 2-day trip planned this weekend with 2-3 other guys and I don't want to be messing with clutching, if at all possible, during this trip.

 

[Snowaddict]

Not to sound like an #*$&@, but you asked for feedback and you have got lots of it now. You seem to be resistant and questioning tried and true experience. @jonlafon1 really knows his $h!t and has messed with his and others, including myself. I am not tuned. I have a TP primary orange and their heavy hitters. I tried version #1 of the TP secondary orange and it gave me hot clutches. I gave up and went back to stock secondary spring. My secondary was machined from the get go. My set up is all based on Jon's and @NOS-PRO (the TP guru) suggestions. I also still run the 8 JP belt. I change it every year just as preventative maintenance. I hope everything works out, including your upcoming trip. As a side note, if you want to be on the safe side for your trip, don't beat the snot out if it and if you go wot, do not get back on it immediately after letting off. Just let off, allow it to shift, and gradually get back on it. A common theme in belt blowing is doing the aforementioned (getting on it hard again immediately after wot and let off.) Good luck. And once the seasons over, do all of the long-term suggestions for your clutch (offset, etc.)

 

[jonlafon1]

" do not get back on it immediately after letting off. Just let off, allow it to shift, and gradually get back on it. A common theme in belt blowing is doing the aforementioned (getting on it hard again immediately after wot and let off.)""

O so TRUE Snowaddict!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[twyztid]

Not to sound like an #*$&@, but you asked for feedback and you have got lots of it now. You seem to be resistant and questioning tried and true experience. @jonlafon1 really knows his $h!t and has messed with his and others, including myself. I am not tuned. I have a TP primary orange and their heavy hitters. I tried version #1 of the TP secondary orange and it gave me hot clutches. I gave up and went back to stock secondary spring. My secondary was machined from the get go. My set up is all based on Jon's and @NOS-PRO (the TP guru) suggestions. I also still run the 8 JP belt. I change it every year just as preventative maintenance. I hope everything works out, including your upcoming trip. As a side note, if you want to be on the safe side for your trip, don't beat the snot out if it and if you go wot, do not get back on it immediately after letting off. Just let off, allow it to shift, and gradually get back on it. A common theme in belt blowing is doing the aforementioned (getting on it hard again immediately after wot and let off.) Good luck. And once the seasons over, do all of the long-term suggestions for your clutch (offset, etc.)

Yes, I asked for feedback and I question everything always. I realize that you guys know your stuff and I do appreciate the input. I also believe that Thunder Products would not recommend that I run their orange spring with that high of a wrap, although I am likely going to try it. I am waiting for a response back to an email that I sent them this morning. Yes, the belt I am currently using and the offset is not ideal... but it is what I have to work with for this last trip. Those things will be corrected for next season. In addition, I will be running a low-mile 2012 Vector primary next season.

I have never been one to just take the advice of a few people without some questions and some understanding on my part. I am sorry if I came off as "resisting" what you guys are telling me. That's just part of my personal tuning process. I probably spent almost 3 hours yesterday reading different threads on this forum about this.

 

[jonlafon1]

Yes, I asked for feedback and I question everything always. I realize that you guys know your stuff and I do appreciate the input. I also believe that Thunder Products would not recommend that I run their orange spring with that high of a wrap, although I am likely going to try it. I am waiting for a response back to an email that I sent them this morning. Yes, the belt I am currently using and the offset is not ideal... but it is what I have to work with for this last trip. Those things will be corrected for next season. In addition, I will be running a low-mile 2012 Vector primary next season.

I have never been one to just take the advice of a few people without some questions and some understanding on my part. I am sorry if I came off as "resisting" what you guys are telling me. That's just part of my personal tuning process. I probably spent almost 3 hours yesterday reading different threads on this forum about this.

Its all good! We are just trying to get your clutches cool and right..

 

[1nc 2000]

Not to sound like an #*$&@, but you asked for feedback and you have got lots of it now. You seem to be resistant and questioning tried and true experience. @jonlafon1 really knows his $h!t and has messed with his and others, including myself. I am not tuned. I have a TP primary orange and their heavy hitters. I tried version #1 of the TP secondary orange and it gave me hot clutches. I gave up and went back to stock secondary spring. My secondary was machined from the get go. My set up is all based on Jon's and @NOS-PRO (the TP guru) suggestions. I also still run the 8 JP belt. I change it every year just as preventative maintenance. I hope everything works out, including your upcoming trip. As a side note, if you want to be on the safe side for your trip, don't beat the snot out if it and if you go wot, do not get back on it immediately after letting off. Just let off, allow it to shift, and gradually get back on it. A common theme in belt blowing is doing the aforementioned (getting on it hard again immediately after wot and let off.) Good luck. And once the seasons over, do all of the long-term suggestions for your clutch (offset, etc.)

Didn't know they have more than one version of the tp orange secondary spring. When did it change? Whats the difference?

 

[Snowaddict]

Yes, I asked for feedback and I question everything always. I realize that you guys know your stuff and I do appreciate the input. I also believe that Thunder Products would not recommend that I run their orange spring with that high of a wrap, although I am likely going to try it. I am waiting for a response back to an email that I sent them this morning. Yes, the belt I am currently using and the offset is not ideal... but it is what I have to work with for this last trip. Those things will be corrected for next season. In addition, I will be running a low-mile 2012 Vector primary next season.

I have never been one to just take the advice of a few people without some questions and some understanding on my part. I am sorry if I came off as "resisting" what you guys are telling me. That's just part of my personal tuning process. I probably spent almost 3 hours yesterday reading different threads on this forum about this.

No need to apologize. All good. Just know there's no people more passionate about sledding and Yamaha than those on this site. And if you do your research (reading on here), you'll see that and get to know the seasoned veterans with the knowledge and experience. I don't blame you for questioning, if you do the reading here, you will see what you do and don't have to question. Perfect example is having my secondary machined by someone (here) I never met and never even riding the sled. I read all of the posted stuff here and had a lot of my setup figured out before I ever put a mile on it. So far, so good.

 

[NOS-PRO]

Didn't know they have more than one version of the tp orange secondary spring. When did it change? Whats the difference?

Nothing changed on the spring, but the 3-3 setting was too much and building heat.

 

[1nc 2000]

Nothing changed on the spring, but the 3-3 setting was too much and building heat.

Thanks bud!