Yamaha RE-tooling for 2020

[geez150]

Difference is NA no turbo! Not everyone wants a turbo! Then for me I want a Yamaha sled to go with my Yamaha motor and as you say everyone has a different opinion!

I get the NA thing as some may be worried about durability and what not associated with having a turbo. I guess I was just trying to convey that the 200 HP motor is smooth and should not be overlooked as I don't think it is out of control or anything like that. As most of the time I'm just cruising around 1/4 throttle loving life and a good trail speed.

 

[whitedust1]

I get the NA thing as some may be worried about durability and what not associated with having a turbo. I guess I was just trying to convey that the 200 HP motor is smooth and should not be overlooked as I don't think it is out of control or anything like that. As most of the time I'm just cruising around 1/4 throttle loving life and a good trail speed.

I’m aware of the SW engine and liked the engine and sled a lot. It was a load to steer and imo needed eps. Looking at the hp hole between 130ish and 200 a nice NA 150 to 165 hp would be the niche for me. Give me 200 ponies and I will use it so not a good idea for me in the straights. Anybody who has had eps will want it again on big mileage days. For me 100 miler is an afternoon ride for me and commonly ride 250 miles with buds so comfort and reasonable power is a must. NA is less complex than a turbo so if possible I woul always go NA 150 hp plus.

 

[Sasquatch]

I get the NA thing as some may be worried about durability and what not associated with having a turbo. I guess I was just trying to convey that the 200 HP motor is smooth and should not be overlooked as I don't think it is out of control or anything like that. As most of the time I'm just cruising around 1/4 throttle loving life and a good trail speed.

Turbo bring with it a whole pile of things I could just do without! NA Apex pin it and hold it for miles and miles! No worries about fuel or under hood heat! I have no doubt the turbo is smooth and quiet and like you I cruise 60 to 80 mph at part throttle! I just don't need any more complexity! The only thing I like about the Cat is the suspension!

 

[74Nitro]

I think I'm a Turbo junkie now, however I agree that a 4 cylinder NA would have a market.
BUT, IMO, in order to sell many of them, it must match the power output of competitors sleds. 170 hp, which is easily attainable. I would like to see them move to a four valve head, and also the bore and stroke that the Phazer has.

 

[Turtle]

Turbo bring with it a whole pile of things I could just do without! NA Apex pin it and hold it for miles and miles! No worries about fuel or under hood heat! I have no doubt the turbo is smooth and quiet and like you I cruise 60 to 80 mph at part throttle! I just don't need any more complexity! The only thing I like about the Cat is the suspension!

What pile of things does a turbo bring with it? What added complexity of the system really has any impact on the owner? I will agree that it is more complex of a system, and there are more parts that can fail vs an NA motor. But honestly, mine and many others have had zero issues with a turbo setup. Granted, I've had other issues with my sled - but nothing related to the turbo. When mine was installed (MPI Turbo Viper) I did have additional gauges installed just for piece of mind to keep an eye on things. And after the initial fuel tweaking in the first couple rides, things have run perfectly for 4000+ miles. I don't even look at the gauges any more. I could have them removed. Oil changes aren't even affected. I can pin the throttle wide open for just as long as your Apex. And yes, it may have some more under hood heat, but there haven't been any side effects of that either.

So other than the reality of having more parts .... please, tell me how a turbo negatively impacts your life or your riding experience. I'm dying to know. Because it has been brutally obvious you have a beef with a turbo engine.

 

[Sasquatch]

What pile of things does a turbo bring with it? What added complexity of the system really has any impact on the owner? I will agree that it is more complex of a system, and there are more parts that can fail vs an NA motor. But honestly, mine and many others have had zero issues with a turbo setup. Granted, I've had other issues with my sled - but nothing related to the turbo. When mine was installed (MPI Turbo Viper) I did have additional gauges installed just for piece of mind to keep an eye on things. And after the initial fuel tweaking in the first couple rides, things have run perfectly for 4000+ miles. I don't even look at the gauges any more. I could have them removed. Oil changes aren't even affected. I can pin the throttle wide open for just as long as your Apex. And yes, it may have some more under hood heat, but there haven't been any side effects of that either.

So other than the reality of having more parts .... please, tell me how a turbo negatively impacts your life or your riding experience. I'm dying to know. Because it has been brutally obvious you have a beef with a turbo engine.

Fuel becomes more critical! Under hood heat in warmer weather all the turbo guys I know wont run in warm temps. Just how long do you pin your turbo? A mile, two miles or many more! All the guys with them say don't do it! At what point does the oil coke in the bearings? You pin and hold a turbo it gets real hot and starts to glow cherry red, the shaft connected to the intake side starts to glow, even the intake turbine and casing heats up causing the compressed air to heat beyond what the inter cooler can handle! Combustion chambers rise in temp and intake charge while still at the same pressure more or less becomes leaner!

I don't want a turbo! Why that bothers you I don't really know! I would rather have a jackshaft driven supercharger, less heat and a linear increase in power and better fuel economy at cruise! I may at some point be forced to buy a turbo but for the time being see no need!

4,000 miles that was just a bit more then my first season call me when you reach 18,000! Finally I just like 150 160hp NA! Reaches well into the triple digits gets awesome fuel mileage and does so with a proven engine what more needs to be said! 4 cylinders sound cool while a three sounds like my Massey Ferguson 35!

 

[STAIN]

Drama.

 

[Sasquatch]

Personal choice! Others may vary!

 

[Turtle]

Fuel becomes more critical! Under hood heat in warmer weather all the turbo guys I know wont run in warm temps. Just how long do you pin your turbo? A mile, two miles or many more! All the guys with them say don't do it! At what point does the oil coke in the bearings? You pin and hold a turbo it gets real hot and starts to glow cherry red, the shaft connected to the intake side starts to glow, even the intake turbine and casing heats up causing the compressed air to heat beyond what the inter cooler can handle! Combustion chambers rise in temp and intake charge while still at the same pressure more or less becomes leaner!

I don't want a turbo! Why that bothers you I don't really know! I would rather have a jackshaft driven supercharger, less heat and a linear increase in power and better fuel economy at cruise! I may at some point be forced to buy a turbo but for the time being see no need!

4,000 miles that was just a bit more then my first season call me when you reach 18,000! Finally I just like 150 160hp NA! Reaches well into the triple digits gets awesome fuel mileage and does so with a proven engine what more needs to be said! 4 cylinders sound cool while a three sounds like my Massey Ferguson 35!

Well, that's a pretty good list of reasons. Most of which I could argue the validity. Granted, I don't run in Canada where the trails are like super freeways that would put me to sleep. But I have held mine WOT from end-to-end on Lake Gogebic, which is a few miles. I'd be willing to bet that most of your concerns are minor at best. That's what "product reliability testing" is for.

I know you don't want a turbo, and so does everyone else. You've been overly clear about that. What bothers me about it is you continue to look down on the Viper/Winder sleds, and have your Apex on some pedestal that all others should view as the gold standard in sleds. Ugh - the Apex is dead. Get over it. It's a sled that Yamaha dragged out for far too long, and it quite possibly one of the reasons that put them in last place for market share. If you do exactly the same thing over and over again, your competition will eventually beat you. But, if that is the sled that fits exactly what YOU want in a sled - great. Keep it till you die, or use it as a basis for what you want in your next sled. But don't keep assuming and preaching that your opinion should be what everyone else should go by.

A jackshaft driven supercharger? - Are you kidding me? Boost building with speed, not rpm? That would be useful in only one application, which is WOT. I guess if that's what YOU want, you are entitled to that. I for one will not even consider it, because it's not what I want.

With regards to re-tooling for 2020 ... Yamaha really needs to begin building sleds that the masses want. The key word being 'want'. The Apex along with other sleds, were very good sleds. But many people didn't WANT them, regardless of what you, I or Yamaha think. If they aren't going to focus on sleds for the masses, that leaves them to building for niche markets with very narrow product lines. And the only way to make money doing that is to drive the price point higher, which will make the niche market even smaller. And if that is the path they take, I guess I may have to start shopping elsewhere.

 

[geez150]

Well, that's a pretty good list of reasons. Most of which I could argue the validity. Granted, I don't run in Canada where the trails are like super freeways that would put me to sleep. But I have held mine WOT from end-to-end on Lake Gogebic, which is a few miles. I'd be willing to bet that most of your concerns are minor at best. That's what "product reliability testing" is for.

I know you don't want a turbo, and so does everyone else. You've been overly clear about that. What bothers me about it is you continue to look down on the Viper/Winder sleds, and have your Apex on some pedestal that all others should view as the gold standard in sleds. Ugh - the Apex is dead. Get over it. It's a sled that Yamaha dragged out for far too long, and it quite possibly one of the reasons that put them in last place for market share. If you do exactly the same thing over and over again, your competition will eventually beat you. But, if that is the sled that fits exactly what YOU want in a sled - great. Keep it till you die, or use it as a basis for what you want in your next sled. But don't keep assuming and preaching that your opinion should be what everyone else should go by.

A jackshaft driven supercharger? - Are you kidding me? Boost building with speed, not rpm? That would be useful in only one application, which is WOT. I guess if that's what YOU want, you are entitled to that. I for one will not even consider it, because it's not what I want.

With regards to re-tooling for 2020 ... Yamaha really needs to begin building sleds that the masses want. The key word being 'want'. The Apex along with other sleds, were very good sleds. But many people didn't WANT them, regardless of what you, I or Yamaha think. If they aren't going to focus on sleds for the masses, that leaves them to building for niche markets with very narrow product lines. And the only way to make money doing that is to drive the price point higher, which will make the niche market even smaller. And if that is the path they take, I guess I may have to start shopping elsewhere.

Nice post! If you stop and think about it, even during some of the better years for the snowmobile industry in the late 90s and early 00s Yamaha made sleds most didn't want. When the industry was going guns blazing into Sno x and high tq twins Yamaha was still dragging the triple along. And if you go further back, when triples were in demand they didn't have one till 97 which was around the time the twins started coming around. So they have been in a 25 year run to the back.

 

[whitedust1]

Be careful there guys the same can be said about the Viper, SW and SRX or the masses would have bought up the inventory and Yamaha claims they have a huge unsold inventory of Vipers and SWs. To me to each their own and there is room imo for both NA and turbo Yamaha sleds. Turbo adds stress to the engine design and complexity that I don’t think is necessary in the 150 to 165 hp niche.

 

[darv]

well i don't know where all this inventory they are talking about is because last week i went on a road trip to buy a SxS and went 5 different Yamaha dealers and they sold no pre-season sleds and are only getting 3 yamaha's to sell next year an every told me they tried to buy this old inventory and it was gone in a flash so i think some is BS some and that what one dealer told me and they where all glad that they have Brand X to sell next year.

 

[whitedust1]

well i don't know where all this inventory they are talking about is because last week i went on a road trip to buy a SxS and went 5 different Yamaha dealers and they sold no pre-season sleds and are only getting 3 yamaha's to sell next year an every told me they tried to buy this old inventory and it was gone in a flash so i think some is BS some and that what one dealer told me and they where all glad that they have Brand X to sell next year.

So Yamaha has no inventory and their inventory reduction statement and policy is total BS? Their public statements published in Snowmobile Mags are lies? Yamaha is not being honest with their dealers? Why the lies???

 

[darv]

you tell me, just telling you what the dealers told me don't shoot the messenger.

 

[whitedust1]

you tell me, just telling you what the dealers told me don't shoot the messenger.

I wouldn’t do that just saying a Yamaha inventory reduction program without any inventory doesn’t make any sense????