Yamaha RE-tooling for 2020

[darv]

The Dealers that i went to where not very have with Yamaha. one told me that a big wig was coming in a couple of weeks for a meeting and he told me that he was going to give them a ear full.

 

[Sasquatch]

Well, that's a pretty good list of reasons. Most of which I could argue the validity. Granted, I don't run in Canada where the trails are like super freeways that would put me to sleep. But I have held mine WOT from end-to-end on Lake Gogebic, which is a few miles. I'd be willing to bet that most of your concerns are minor at best. That's what "product reliability testing" is for.

I know you don't want a turbo, and so does everyone else. You've been overly clear about that. What bothers me about it is you continue to look down on the Viper/Winder sleds, and have your Apex on some pedestal that all others should view as the gold standard in sleds. Ugh - the Apex is dead. Get over it. It's a sled that Yamaha dragged out for far too long, and it quite possibly one of the reasons that put them in last place for market share. If you do exactly the same thing over and over again, your competition will eventually beat you. But, if that is the sled that fits exactly what YOU want in a sled - great. Keep it till you die, or use it as a basis for what you want in your next sled. But don't keep assuming and preaching that your opinion should be what everyone else should go by.

A jackshaft driven supercharger? - Are you kidding me? Boost building with speed, not rpm? That would be useful in only one application, which is WOT. I guess if that's what YOU want, you are entitled to that. I for one will not even consider it, because it's not what I want.

With regards to re-tooling for 2020 ... Yamaha really needs to begin building sleds that the masses want. The key word being 'want'. The Apex along with other sleds, were very good sleds. But many people didn't WANT them, regardless of what you, I or Yamaha think. If they aren't going to focus on sleds for the masses, that leaves them to building for niche markets with very narrow product lines. And the only way to make money doing that is to drive the price point higher, which will make the niche market even smaller. And if that is the path they take, I guess I may have to start shopping elsewhere.

The Apex is the last best Yamaha sled! The Viper Sidewinder are Cat sleds because like the Apex is dead so is Yamaha as a sled builder/manufacturer! All they have left is engines! The turbo does not work off rpm it works off of exhaust pressure based on throttle opening, if you can not understand that then to explain how a jack shaft supercharger will work well for a cruiser type sled (has little to do with WOT, throttle is a turbo thing) to someone who does not understand how either one works will be hard but here goes!

A super charger works off rpm, a jackshaft supercharger works off jackshaft rpm! So your at 55mph or half boost of the supercharger you let off the throttle rpms drop and you cruise with half boost. You hit a hill or want to pass you squeeze the throttle slightly and you don't wait for turbo to spool up you still have your boost at part throttle, throttle response would be impressive at any throttle increase part or full! Fuel economy should increase with less throttle fluctuation and less on off boost! Now you could over drive the supercharger and have full boost at half speed then wastegate it after that for more performance on trail! This is with a low pressure say 5pd max system, Off the line would be stock power but boost would climb fast allowing less traction loss with ever increasing power increase. Much easier on the trails. Now Yamaha has patented a jackshaft supercharger! I would love this on an Apex engine but where I think its going is onto a 998 triple! Dropping the 1050 and running the 998 NA at 100 to 110hp then the 998 superchaged at 150 160 and lastly the 998 turbo at its claimed 200! One engine three power choices! Not what I want but!

If the masses want the turbo sleds then explain why there are so many leftovers from 2017 and even more from 2018, so many in fact Yamaha has limited production to clear inventory! You seem to think that I or others want a delta box chassis and confuse the fact that what I and others want is a Yamaha built by Yamaha with an Apex engine in it! Again one chassis with three engines and two track length choices for the trails and two longer track choices for the deep and steep! How that equates to a niche market is puzzling because I think the niche market is the turbo 998 and to late that one is at 20,000 bucks! I'll take the Apex engine please at 17,500!

Now our Canadian trails vary greatly from superhighways to switchback trails, they vary from province to province as well. I can run tight twisty trails and flat out hydro lines and lakes. I can climb straight up on roller coaster pipelines so steep that the groomers can't climb them when they groom first time of the year and must go down the creek bed and bypass the opposite side to return the next day to groom down that side, once groomed and set up they can climb both sides with no problem. I can do all these type trails in one day!

So now I don't want a turbo sled this seems to bother you so I will reply like you did "get over it" your turbo is not what most want! The RX is a gold standard for Yamaha sleds, Yamaha changed the whole industry with its four stroke sleds with it! I do hold it up as the last best sled Yamaha built! From that point on Yamaha stopped building sleds, gave up on themselves and chose to buy their sleds from the competition! Every sled Yamaha has, so does the competition in fact the competition has more then they have. Yamaha dropped the touring Venture and the VK professional work sled! So I do look down on the re sticker ed Catamaha's with a little bit of disgust and disdain that a once great company has given up and reduced themselves to buying the competition's sleds, putting on Yamaha stickers and allowing them (CAT) to steal their thunder! Viper Sidewinder, don't you mean 7000 and T-Cat?

You go on about me and the Apex and what I want but I don't think you understand, I am far from alone in that regard! Worse is you assume way to much! What I and others want is a Yamaha, designed by Yamaha, built by Yamaha, with a Yamaha engine, we have wanted that for way longer then then you have been riding your Catamaha! I will continue to stand on top of the Yamaha pedestal and you can stand on top of the Arctic Cat pedestal with your Viper! Long live the Apex!

 

[cannondale27]

You both are right. No one wins in this argument. Let's just hope Yamaha has a future in Snowmobiles and it's a winning one!

 

[hibshman25]

I wouldn’t do that just saying a Yamaha inventory reduction program without any inventory doesn’t make any sense????

The way I understand it all the inventory in Yamaha's possession is cleared out, but there is unsold inventory on dealer floors. Liquidation is complete when all the dealer inventory is sold.

 

[earthling]

I wouldn’t do that just saying a Yamaha inventory reduction program without any inventory doesn’t make any sense????

Its likely the inventory reduction is field inventory, meaning that some dealer(s), somewhere are sitting on sleds. Dealers wouldn't have much access to each others inventory so they only perspective they may have is their own inventory and that of the factory. This is pure speculation and if true, it means that the program is working. It could also be that Yamaha is intentionally not servicing the smaller dealers, instead focusing on larger ones where they know that they can build further loyalty by sending them more business (inventory). Again, pure speculation but most of this discussion is.

 

[CooperT]

Anybody need a job?

 

[earthling]

<Snip> The turbo does not work off rpm it works off of exhaust pressure based on throttle opening, if you can not understand that then to explain how a jack shaft supercharger will work well for a cruiser type sled (has little to do with WOT, throttle is a turbo thing) to someone who does not understand how either one works will be hard but here goes!

<SNIP>

A super charger works off rpm, a jackshaft supercharger works off jackshaft rpm! So your at 55mph or half boost of the supercharger you let off the throttle rpms drop and you cruise with half boost. You hit a hill or want to pass you squeeze the throttle slightly and you don't wait for turbo to spool up you still have your boost at part throttle, throttle response would be impressive at any throttle increase part or full! Fuel economy should increase with less throttle fluctuation and less on off boost! Now you could over drive the supercharger and have full boost at half speed then wastegate it after that for more performance on trail! This is with a low pressure say 5pd max system, Off the line would be stock power but boost would climb fast allowing less traction loss with ever increasing power increase. Much easier on the trails. Now Yamaha has patented a jackshaft supercharger! I would love this on an Apex engine but where I think its going is onto a 998 triple! Dropping the 1050 and running the 998 NA at 100 to 110hp then the 998 superchaged at 150 160 and lastly the 998 turbo at its claimed 200! One engine three power choices! Not what I want but!
​

Exhaust pressure (speed of displacement really) is directly related to RPM. That is why there is a lag in the system with the turbo. On idle there isn't enough velocity to matter, above idle pressure starts to build.

The main difference between the two is efficiency, otherwise they are both technically superchargers (if you define SC as forced induction), its how they are driven that makes them different. A supercharger is always creating pressure, that is why it doesn't suffer from lag. It does this at the expense of engine load, a SC engine is always carrying the extra load of running the SC. All of your speculation about overdriving and wastegates is just biasing the efficiency of the SC while compromising the efficiency of the engine.

The main advantage of a turbo (other than being small) is that it runs off of wasted energy, yes it creates some impact on exhaust pressure which is why you always see the turbo coming with some modifications to the exhaust system. They also create heat but your previous explanations of the heat problem are way overblown.. I tend to run my sleds in coolish environments (just sayin'). Yamaha doesn't seem to be compromising their stance on warranty which would be the visible indication that they are concerned about engine life.

I am not arguing for or against a SC or a Turbo, I have had both across multiple applications (cars, boats, bikes, etc) but your bias towards one over the other is misleading. Both have their place in engine (or sled) design. Yamaha probably created the jackshaft driven SC purely because it is slightly cheaper than the turbo. At traditional markups the price can be significant.

The rest of your previous arguments about the various use cases (impact on the user experience) seem a bit misleading.

Who runs around at idle. This isn't about idle, it is about cruise and acceleration. At idle speeds the SC will create more power than the turbo. This only matters from a dead stop. Even in my NA sled if I jump on the throttle in most conditions I have more traction problems than power problems. At cruise speed the turbo will take a split second longer to spool (at low cruise speeds) but while cruising at trail speeds it will be more efficient (on fuel) and pull just as hard (or harder) than the SC and frankly, I am not sure if the difference in reaction matters. If you are concerned about efficiency the turbo will win every time on paper but most sleds are driven by endorphin fueled meat puppets (the snowmobile enthusiast) who more than likely is a bit more aggressive on the throttle enjoying the endorphin rush that comes with the turbo power. Isn't that the whole point?!?!?!

Heat and other turbo 'issues'. Both SCs and Turbos put extra load on the engine and from a pure seasonal maintenance point of view I would guess that most people service them equally, meaning that there is no cost differential, hell, most people who do regular maintenance probably over-service their sleds given modern synthetic oil performance so its simply a non-issue. I don't see too many reports of turbo specific issues in the SW camp. Also, there is the fact that most of our driving is done in 'coolish' temperatures.. just sayin'. I have run turbos and SCs on streets bikes, cars, and boats. I tended to run the boat in 'warmish' environments (like Arizona and California) and I never really had heat problems. Putting aside the DIY turbo crowd, the properly engineered turbo installation is probably going to have a long, problem free ownership experience, evidence is mounting as we speak.

I get that you want an NA snowmobile and pragmatically speaking, the apex makes enough power for most of the population but you have to admit that there is a certain select group of folks who want a turbo and they seem to be enjoying their purchase and want more of it. Lets let it go at that.

If the masses want the turbo sleds then explain why there are so many leftovers from 2017 and even more from 2018, so many in fact Yamaha has limited production to clear inventory!

Purchase price, no snow, short season, competing priorities.. Having turbos on cars has not limited the number of cars sold.. again, just sayin'. We all get in spades now that you don't want a turbo. Other people do. Everyone gets a choice, frankly I don't care if Yamaha chooses a SC or a Turbo or finds some magical way to create a high HP NA engine that is light and compact (that runs on pump gas). And, I don't really care what chassis it comes in as long as the build quality is high.

 

[TrueBlue]

The Apex is the last best Yamaha sled! The Viper Sidewinder are Cat sleds because like the Apex is dead so is Yamaha as a sled builder/manufacturer! All they have left is engines! The turbo does not work off rpm it works off of exhaust pressure based on throttle opening, if you can not understand that then to explain how a jack shaft supercharger will work well for a cruiser type sled (has little to do with WOT, throttle is a turbo thing) to someone who does not understand how either one works will be hard but here goes!

A super charger works off rpm, a jackshaft supercharger works off jackshaft rpm! So your at 55mph or half boost of the supercharger you let off the throttle rpms drop and you cruise with half boost. You hit a hill or want to pass you squeeze the throttle slightly and you don't wait for turbo to spool up you still have your boost at part throttle, throttle response would be impressive at any throttle increase part or full! Fuel economy should increase with less throttle fluctuation and less on off boost! Now you could over drive the supercharger and have full boost at half speed then wastegate it after that for more performance on trail! This is with a low pressure say 5pd max system, Off the line would be stock power but boost would climb fast allowing less traction loss with ever increasing power increase. Much easier on the trails. Now Yamaha has patented a jackshaft supercharger! I would love this on an Apex engine but where I think its going is onto a 998 triple! Dropping the 1050 and running the 998 NA at 100 to 110hp then the 998 superchaged at 150 160 and lastly the 998 turbo at its claimed 200! One engine three power choices! Not what I want but!

If the masses want the turbo sleds then explain why there are so many leftovers from 2017 and even more from 2018, so many in fact Yamaha has limited production to clear inventory! You seem to think that I or others want a delta box chassis and confuse the fact that what I and others want is a Yamaha built by Yamaha with an Apex engine in it! Again one chassis with three engines and two track length choices for the trails and two longer track choices for the deep and steep! How that equates to a niche market is puzzling because I think the niche market is the turbo 998 and to late that one is at 20,000 bucks! I'll take the Apex engine please at 17,500!

Now our Canadian trails vary greatly from superhighways to switchback trails, they vary from province to province as well. I can run tight twisty trails and flat out hydro lines and lakes. I can climb straight up on roller coaster pipelines so steep that the groomers can't climb them when they groom first time of the year and must go down the creek bed and bypass the opposite side to return the next day to groom down that side, once groomed and set up they can climb both sides with no problem. I can do all these type trails in one day!

So now I don't want a turbo sled this seems to bother you so I will reply like you did "get over it" your turbo is not what most want! The RX is a gold standard for Yamaha sleds, Yamaha changed the whole industry with its four stroke sleds with it! I do hold it up as the last best sled Yamaha built! From that point on Yamaha stopped building sleds, gave up on themselves and chose to buy their sleds from the competition! Every sled Yamaha has, so does the competition in fact the competition has more then they have. Yamaha dropped the touring Venture and the VK professional work sled! So I do look down on the re sticker ed Catamaha's with a little bit of disgust and disdain that a once great company has given up and reduced themselves to buying the competition's sleds, putting on Yamaha stickers and allowing them (CAT) to steal their thunder! Viper Sidewinder, don't you mean 7000 and T-Cat?

You go on about me and the Apex and what I want but I don't think you understand, I am far from alone in that regard! Worse is you assume way to much! What I and others want is a Yamaha, designed by Yamaha, built by Yamaha, with a Yamaha engine, we have wanted that for way longer then then you have been riding your Catamaha! I will continue to stand on top of the Yamaha pedestal and you can stand on top of the Arctic Cat pedestal with your Viper! Long live the Apex!

And also the VECTORS were great sleds to.

 

[Mountaintech]

What is a porche? I think I may have sat on one once.

 

[74Nitro]

My dealer pre-sold 10 Winders, 6 of them the SRX version. (One of them mine )
As far as Turbos go, I'm hooked. I have never experienced nothing like it. The only place it lacks compared to NA is tip-in throttle from a standing start. It is far-superior everywhere else.
It's the future and Doo agrees, obviously.
Polaris will have a turbo again soon(not a dud), they'd be fools not to.

 

[Wannaviper]

well i don't know where all this inventory they are talking about is because last week i went on a road trip to buy a SxS and went 5 different Yamaha dealers and they sold no pre-season sleds and are only getting 3 yamaha's to sell next year an every told me they tried to buy this old inventory and it was gone in a flash so i think some is BS some and that what one dealer told me and they where all glad that they have Brand X to sell next year.

I don't understand it, but the dealers here in the northeast are not sitting on any inventory either. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but a local dealer sold @100 new Yamaha's this past season, and he wanted all the leftover sleds he could get, but is getting only a small fraction of what he needs. He also said that all the Yamaha leftover inventory was gone the second it became available. I thought it was the Midwest dealers who were sitting on all the unsold inventory, but it sounds like at least Minnesota is in the same boat as Maine. In all seriousness, who are these dealers who are sitting on the leftovers, and why haven't they shipped those sleds off to all the dealers who are crying for them?

 

[STAIN]

If it says Yamaha on the sled its a Yamaha. Let it go. Its getting old.

 

[greatwhite89]

I don't understand it, but the dealers here in the northeast are not sitting on any inventory either. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but a local dealer sold @100 new Yamaha's this past season, and he wanted all the leftover sleds he could get, but is getting only a small fraction of what he needs. He also said that all the Yamaha leftover inventory was gone the second it became available. I thought it was the Midwest dealers who were sitting on all the unsold inventory, but it sounds like at least Minnesota is in the same boat as Maine. In all seriousness, who are these dealers who are sitting on the leftovers, and why haven't they shipped those sleds off to all the dealers who are crying for them?

Mostly dealers in Wisconsin it appears.

 

[Sasquatch]

Exhaust pressure (speed of displacement really) is directly related to RPM. That is why there is a lag in the system with the turbo. On idle there isn't enough velocity to matter, above idle pressure starts to build.

The main difference between the two is efficiency, otherwise they are both technically superchargers (if you define SC as forced induction), its how they are driven that makes them different. A supercharger is always creating pressure, that is why it doesn't suffer from lag. It does this at the expense of engine load, a SC engine is always carrying the extra load of running the SC. All of your speculation about overdriving and wastegates is just biasing the efficiency of the SC while compromising the efficiency of the engine.

The main advantage of a turbo (other than being small) is that it runs off of wasted energy, yes it creates some impact on exhaust pressure which is why you always see the turbo coming with some modifications to the exhaust system. They also create heat but your previous explanations of the heat problem are way overblown.. I tend to run my sleds in coolish environments (just sayin'). Yamaha doesn't seem to be compromising their stance on warranty which would be the visible indication that they are concerned about engine life.

I am not arguing for or against a SC or a Turbo, I have had both across multiple applications (cars, boats, bikes, etc) but your bias towards one over the other is misleading. Both have their place in engine (or sled) design. Yamaha probably created the jackshaft driven SC purely because it is slightly cheaper than the turbo. At traditional markups the price can be significant.

The rest of your previous arguments about the various use cases (impact on the user experience) seem a bit misleading.

Who runs around at idle. This isn't about idle, it is about cruise and acceleration. At idle speeds the SC will create more power than the turbo. This only matters from a dead stop. Even in my NA sled if I jump on the throttle in most conditions I have more traction problems than power problems. At cruise speed the turbo will take a split second longer to spool (at low cruise speeds) but while cruising at trail speeds it will be more efficient (on fuel) and pull just as hard (or harder) than the SC and frankly, I am not sure if the difference in reaction matters. If you are concerned about efficiency the turbo will win every time on paper but most sleds are driven by endorphin fueled meat puppets (the snowmobile enthusiast) who more than likely is a bit more aggressive on the throttle enjoying the endorphin rush that comes with the turbo power. Isn't that the whole point?!?!?!

Heat and other turbo 'issues'. Both SCs and Turbos put extra load on the engine and from a pure seasonal maintenance point of view I would guess that most people service them equally, meaning that there is no cost differential, hell, most people who do regular maintenance probably over-service their sleds given modern synthetic oil performance so its simply a non-issue. I don't see too many reports of turbo specific issues in the SW camp. Also, there is the fact that most of our driving is done in 'coolish' temperatures.. just sayin'. I have run turbos and SCs on streets bikes, cars, and boats. I tended to run the boat in 'warmish' environments (like Arizona and California) and I never really had heat problems. Putting aside the DIY turbo crowd, the properly engineered turbo installation is probably going to have a long, problem free ownership experience, evidence is mounting as we speak.

I get that you want an NA snowmobile and pragmatically speaking, the apex makes enough power for most of the population but you have to admit that there is a certain select group of folks who want a turbo and they seem to be enjoying their purchase and want more of it. Lets let it go at that.



Purchase price, no snow, short season, competing priorities.. Having turbos on cars has not limited the number of cars sold.. again, just sayin'. We all get in spades now that you don't want a turbo. Other people do. Everyone gets a choice, frankly I don't care if Yamaha chooses a SC or a Turbo or finds some magical way to create a high HP NA engine that is light and compact (that runs on pump gas). And, I don't really care what chassis it comes in as long as the build quality is high.

I agree there is a certain select group that wants a turbo, there is also a certain select group that does not! Questions where asked and answered, there are two sides to every argument and I think Yamaha did a good job on their design of the 998T.

As this is a speculation thread about what people want and why, simple answers seem to be incorrect! I like turbos and I don't like turbos go out the window! But what it is about is speculation and thought based on what Yamaha has done and could do if they get up off their asses!

I think a jackshaft supercharger is interesting in design and I can see benefits, especially in a cruiser style engine! We can argue which is better in every given aspect of its design with all known drawbacks, this is what a speculation thread is about and I welcome it! Turbo has its place, NA has its place and now we have a patent for a interesting at rest pressure delivery device that does not deliver boost till the sled moves.

Interesting in concept and would increase part throttle response at cruise speed and increase top end power! As a low pressure device under hood is way down and power to drive it is minimal at cruise! No more then the Yamacharger and without the low hanging wheel! I like it!

I think most can agree if Yamaha wants to stay in the market, it needs to build sleds! If they don't then what happens in 2020 or 21 or beyond is up to Textron and at their discretion! I think 2019 is their hand in the mix!

 

[Sasquatch]

If it says Yamaha on the sled its a Yamaha. Let it go. Its getting old.

LMAO!