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2020 Release

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biffdotorg said:
This makes no sense at all, In my last post I said, there are current two strokes that do not come with a recoil as well. There are 3-4 in my sled group.

This is not a 2s 4s debate, this is a stock recoil debate. If a recoil fails on a sled, or if a starter fails on a sled with no recoil, you are in the same boat. And if you think you cannot start your sled, you need to pull out your phone on the side of the trail and learn how to wrap your backup rope around the primary. Again, that's the same for 2s or 4s. Vipers are not the only sleds that ship without a recoil.

(and yes, it is possible to clutch start a 4s, it's just not as easy of a pull) This is way off topic, so I will let this go for now.
Click to expand...

First of all I probably been wrenching & riding sleds longer than you. I also know how to start a sled using the rope on the primary, which I have done before but still could not get it started so stick that in your hat.
 
Wannaviper said:
I agree that 11,000 sleds worldwide is not a good sign for Yamaha, and that may well be why Yamaha took a year off to clear the inventory backlog. The point of my post was simply that putting Yamaha engines in the Pro Cross chassis was probably a financial success. We are talking about what Yamaha will do in 2020, and the profitability (or lack thereof) of the Yamaha-Arctic Cat partnership will have a big effect on what Yamaha does in 2020. Any money made from selling engines to AC was then used to buy AC chassis and build Yamaha's sleds for them, so I don't know how financially successful the agreement is for one company or the other. Hard to get that data from anywhere. They both needed help and I think it worked out for both companiesLet's look at the "facts":

FACT: In 2013 & 2014 Yamaha sold 4,000 sleds per year in the U.S. based upon numbers direct from Yamaha.
FACT: The industry is on an overall downward sales trend. According to statistica.com, global snowmobile sales were 157,106 in 2013/2014 and slipped to 118,657 in 2016/2017, a reduction of almost exactly 25%. Yamaha says worldwide sled sales were 128,000 in 2017
FACT: In 2017, Yamaha also had a 25% reduction sales reduction in the U.S., just like the rest of the industry, selling 3,000 sleds.
FACT: In addition to the 3,000 sleds, Yamaha was also selling Viper and Sidewinder engines to Arctic Cat for the 7000 series sleds and Thundercats. Every one of those AC sleds sold was a Viper or a Sidewinder with Arctic Cat graphics, and more importantly, money in Yamaha's pocket. Did Yamaha get their sleds built for them and the chassis from AC for free?
CONCLUSION: In 2017 the combined number of Viper (7000) and Sidewinder (Thundercat) sales prevented Yamaha from suffering the 25% loss of sales suffered by the rest of the industry. Again, did Yamaha get the chassis and assembly of Yamaha sleds for free? We know they didn't. I suspect that Yamaha views that as a financial success. I think it kept them afloat in very difficult times but the agreement is not a model for financial success

Anecdotal or not, I really do see more "Yamacats" and "Catahas" than I used to see pure Yamahas on the trails. That may be due in part to the fact that there are now 5 years worth of Viper sales, and because of those Yamaha engines, most of them are still on the trail. I see a lot more ski-Doos and Polaris than Yamahas where I ride.
Click to expand...

I agree that 11,000 sleds worldwide is not a good sign for Yamaha, and that may well be why Yamaha took a year off to clear the inventory backlog. The point of my post was simply that putting Yamaha engines in the Pro Cross chassis was probably a financial success. We are talking about what Yamaha will do in 2020, and the profitability (or lack thereof) of the Yamaha-Arctic Cat partnership will have a big effect on what Yamaha does in 2020. Any money made from selling engines to AC was then used to buy AC chassis and build Yamaha's sleds for them, so I don't know how financially successful the agreement is for one company or the other. Hard to get that data from anywhere. They both needed help and I think it worked out for both companiesLet's look at the "facts":

FACT: In 2013 & 2014 Yamaha sold 4,000 sleds per year in the U.S. based upon numbers direct from Yamaha.
FACT: The industry is on an overall downward sales trend. According to statistica.com, global snowmobile sales were 157,106 in 2013/2014 and slipped to 118,657 in 2016/2017, a reduction of almost exactly 25%. Yamaha says worldwide sled sales were 128,000 in 2017
FACT: In 2017, Yamaha also had a 25% reduction sales reduction in the U.S., just like the rest of the industry, selling 3,000 sleds.
FACT: In addition to the 3,000 sleds, Yamaha was also selling Viper and Sidewinder engines to Arctic Cat for the 7000 series sleds and Thundercats. Every one of those AC sleds sold was a Viper or a Sidewinder with Arctic Cat graphics, and more importantly, money in Yamaha's pocket. Did Yamaha get their sleds built for them and the chassis from AC for free?
CONCLUSION: In 2017 the combined number of Viper (7000) and Sidewinder (Thundercat) sales prevented Yamaha from suffering the 25% loss of sales suffered by the rest of the industry. Again, did Yamaha get the chassis and assembly of Yamaha sleds for free? We know they didn't. I suspect that Yamaha views that as a financial success. I think it kept them afloat in very difficult times but the agreement is not a model for financial success

Anecdotal or not, I really do see more "Yamacats" and "Catahas" than I used to see pure Yamahas on the trails. That may be due in part to the fact that there are now 5 years worth of Viper sales, and because of those Yamaha engines, most of them are still on the trail. I see a lot more ski-Doos and Polaris than Yamahas where I ride.

Whatever their plan is I hope it works and we all get the sleds we want.
 
T-Bone said:
I agree that 11,000 sleds worldwide is not a good sign for Yamaha, and that may well be why Yamaha took a year off to clear the inventory backlog. The point of my post was simply that putting Yamaha engines in the Pro Cross chassis was probably a financial success. We are talking about what Yamaha will do in 2020, and the profitability (or lack thereof) of the Yamaha-Arctic Cat partnership will have a big effect on what Yamaha does in 2020. Any money made from selling engines to AC was then used to buy AC chassis and build Yamaha's sleds for them, so I don't know how financially successful the agreement is for one company or the other. Hard to get that data from anywhere. They both needed help and I think it worked out for both companiesLet's look at the "facts":

FACT: In 2013 & 2014 Yamaha sold 4,000 sleds per year in the U.S. based upon numbers direct from Yamaha.
FACT: The industry is on an overall downward sales trend. According to statistica.com, global snowmobile sales were 157,106 in 2013/2014 and slipped to 118,657 in 2016/2017, a reduction of almost exactly 25%. Yamaha says worldwide sled sales were 128,000 in 2017
FACT: In 2017, Yamaha also had a 25% reduction sales reduction in the U.S., just like the rest of the industry, selling 3,000 sleds.
FACT: In addition to the 3,000 sleds, Yamaha was also selling Viper and Sidewinder engines to Arctic Cat for the 7000 series sleds and Thundercats. Every one of those AC sleds sold was a Viper or a Sidewinder with Arctic Cat graphics, and more importantly, money in Yamaha's pocket. Did Yamaha get their sleds built for them and the chassis from AC for free?
CONCLUSION: In 2017 the combined number of Viper (7000) and Sidewinder (Thundercat) sales prevented Yamaha from suffering the 25% loss of sales suffered by the rest of the industry. Again, did Yamaha get the chassis and assembly of Yamaha sleds for free? We know they didn't. I suspect that Yamaha views that as a financial success. I think it kept them afloat in very difficult times but the agreement is not a model for financial success

Anecdotal or not, I really do see more "Yamacats" and "Catahas" than I used to see pure Yamahas on the trails. That may be due in part to the fact that there are now 5 years worth of Viper sales, and because of those Yamaha engines, most of them are still on the trail. I see a lot more ski-Doos and Polaris than Yamahas where I ride.

Whatever their plan is I hope it works and we all get the sleds we want.
Click to expand...

Looking at world-wide sales numbers and Yamaha market shares they are underperforming in the US.. so from that standpoint whatever they are doing there is not giving them the same sales as the other markets.. Russia might be sanctions I guess (would be interesting to see if lynx gets around those)


Hoping the move to Georgia and in with the GP guys (or wherever it was) gets them in a good spot and they get some good guys and gals there who can see the value in beeing ahead in the game..
 
TrueBlue said:
First of all I probably been wrenching & riding sleds longer than you. I also know how to start a sled using the rope on the primary, which I have done before but still could not get it started so stick that in your hat.
Click to expand...

Wow, what a childish response to a misunderstanding in words. Your complaint is still not a 2s/4s issue and has nothing to do with this topic. Point still made.

PS: my 1966 Johnson Skee Horse tells me that I was manually priming a horizontally apposed twin before you. So don't act like pulling experience rank makes your argument make any more sense.
 
Someone on a thread like this kept saying 200 hp and under 500 lbs, and then they came out with the sidewinder.
He was half right.
Is this the year the other half comes true?
 
1nc 2000 said:
Someone on a thread like this kept saying 200 hp and under 500 lbs, and then they came out with the sidewinder.
He was half right.
Is this the year the other half comes true?
Click to expand...
You know they could. Phazer is. Lighten the framework front end and Turbo a bigger 2 cylinder. Done.
 
biffdotorg said:
Wow, what a childish response to a misunderstanding in words. Your complaint is still not a 2s/4s issue and has nothing to do with this topic. Point still made.

PS: my 1966 Johnson Skee Horse tells me that I was manually priming a horizontally apposed twin before you. So don't act like pulling experience rank makes your argument make any more sense.
Click to expand...

Get over it.
 
We are all here to for the same reason. We want a change from Yamaha so no need to fight about what we think is going to happen. Winters coming we should all be happy about that!
 
T-Bone said:
The numbers I reported and graphics are directly from Yamaha's web sight. If there are inconsistencies in the data that's on Yamaha explain. I'm not going to go into world economics, just trying to present the rawest data available for everyone to see. It is really hard to argue with facts from the Yamaha facebook provided from the Yamaha corporate page. Total units sold in a given year easy to pick off the graphic. it doesn't matter if they were sold in Hawaii, Moscow, or Michigan. and It doesn't matter if industry sales are up or down 25%. Yamaha's total sales worldwide of 11,000 is embarrassingly small. Facts are always better than the anecdote that I have Yamaha 4-stroke and I see them all over where I ride so sales must be increasing. Wrong!!
Click to expand...


The reason sleds sales are down isn't just the lack of snow, it's mainly the price of these things now days! They're getting too complicated just like the cars and trucks we drive, turbos and things we don't really need on sleds, that's why they cost so damn much. They need to start making basic 2 stroke sleds again, something without all the bells and whistles. If more people could afford to buy them the sales would go up. Look at that new arctic cat they call an SRX, MSRP is like $17,500, that's not including tax or interest if you take out a loan, I mean....who want's to spend nearly 20 grand on a snowmobile?! lol
 
I might have to disagree there. Basic never sells. Look at cars. Companies are dropping their basic cheap small cars. Tech and new stuff sells. For the people that want a cheaper sled( or car ) the used market is full of good deals and fills that hole.
I know working at a dealership that there are certain models you cant give away when they are sitting on the lot new. All of them are the cheap basic models. But when they come onto the lot used, they don't stay around long and are gone in a few days.
 
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