Clutch observation and issue. Calling clutch experts here.

[ClutchMaster]

Somewhere in this book i read about proper clutching keeping constant pressure on belt & "jumping" or loosening on backshift can be fatal....looks like i got homework tomorrowView attachment 136849

Best rummage sale item you’ll ever buy!

 

[jonlafon1]

That is correct I believe. I have it in mine with a 33/35 Dalton Helix set at 3-3, and ran very well...top R’s were 8550-8600. Going to go with 6-1 wrap now cuz Dalton and other experienced Tuners on here say 6-1 is the recommended wrap. May get me a bit more top end R’s..along with sled breaking in more as well(417 miles on it now).
JoeLTX with this same set up changed from 3-3 to 6-1 and found more top End he said..and likes it even better, and is very happy he said.

With that HELIX maybe that is true. I still do NOT buy the stiffer spring needed in sidewinder. Let everyone give me all the #*$&@ they want. I can assure you with a higher straight angle helix it will not work. I fully expect to get hammered on this. But I will stick with my observations. If flashed high horse you can maybe pull these stiff secondary springs. Otherwise don't waste your money

 

[Big_Phil]

Well let's back up just a tad. I do NOT want to argue with smart people here because i'm not in their league.
BUT..........If that belt goes slack for that half second & you happen to nail 200 HP just right, only common sense says BOOOOOOOMMMMMM!
My Apex does not even hesitate. I am very rough & borderline abusive on belts & i still have a 4500 mile 8DN belt i keep for ''TST". That would be Two Stroke Towing.
Mine is not as bad as BigPhil's, but i just can't see that being right.

If i have to watch my throttle play, i'll sell my 'Winder & powder coat my Apex & spend $60 every other year & smoke my buddy that is interested in buying my 'Winder because he has to "watch" his throttle........

P.S: I'm going to fix mine so that was just me ranting a tad

Yup, its not right. My Turbo nytro never blew belts and I drove that thing like a lunatic. It has more power than a stock sidewinder and hooks up better. My skis were always in the air. Its no fun driving my sidewinder right now, Ive just been rolling into the throttle, havent been wheeling over every hill and knoll like I'm used to.

The most irritating thing is having some guy from Yamaha head office tell me "Im pretty sure thats normal" and "Its a powerful sled, maybe Im not warming up the belt properly". I even sent them the video of my sidewinder clutches then the video of my Nytro clutches. My dealer is great, they have been looking at it ahead of other people, but they dont want to shell out $600 or whatever for a new secondary clutch, understandably so. Yamaha wont authorize a new secondary. If I didnt have a good dealer, my sled would probably still be sitting there waiting to be looked at still, because they are swamped in the shop.

 

[Big_Phil]

I can assure you it is not same as stock spring. I will go on limb as say not even close. I know I will get #*$&@ for this. But real world riding and testing does not lie. It's got MORE side pressur then stock

It has alot more initial compression, more at the midpoint, but actually has 2 kg less at full shift out. This is according to the dalton site.

http://www.daltonindustries.com/product_detail.php?product_id=293

 

[WinterWolf]

With that HELIX maybe that is true. I still do NOT buy the stiffer spring needed in sidewinder. Let everyone give me all the #*$&@ they want. I can assure you with a higher straight angle helix it will not work. I fully expect to get hammered on this. But I will stick with my observations. If flashed high horse you can maybe pull these stiff secondary springs. Otherwise don't waste your money

You may be right, but I wanted the same finish rate of 35(like stock), but the reverse angle with the slightly stiffer spring has more grunt out of the hole...and finishes like the stock cuz it’s the same finish angle of 35. And I have a completely stock primary.

 

[jonlafon1]

It has alot more initial compression, more at the midpoint, but actually has 2 kg less at full shift out. This is according to the dalton site.

http://www.daltonindustries.com/product_detail.php?product_id=293

I gotcha man. I read it also. But in real world riding it's way to much full shift with straight 38. I have more belt dust in 200-300 miles then 1000+ from last year. Same belt same everything in clutching. Checked eveything 3 times rollers, weights, etc. ALL the dust is in secondary. I can not open secondary(full shift) with heavier spring then with stock spring and 38 straight. Big difference when your pulling against a 38 degree the whole shift out.

 

[Big_Phil]

I gotcha man. I read it also. But in real world riding it's way to much full shift with straight 38. I have more belt dust in 200-300 miles then 1000+ from last year. Same belt same everything in clutching. Checked eveything 3 times rollers, weights, etc. ALL the dust is in secondary. I can not open secondary(full shift) with heavier spring then with stock spring and 38 straight. Big difference when your pulling against a 38 degree the whole shift out.

Ya I suppose we cant really compare setups, we have too many different components going on. I think I need to buy that Aaen clutch theory book and read it a couple times.

I would like to buy a different helix, just because a dalton one has to be more precisely made than a stock one. I just have no idea what angles to get, and dont want to end up buying a bunch of different ones. But maybe this is why my secondary isnt closing properly. If all the rollers arent evenly touching the helix, that should mean something isnt in spec. Either the whole clutch, the moveable sheave or the helix............

 

[jonlafon1]

Ya I suppose we cant really compare setups, we have too many different components going on. I think I need to buy that Aaen clutch theory book and read it a couple times.

I would like to buy a different helix, just because a dalton one has to be more precisely made than a stock one. I just have no idea what angles to get, and dont want to end up buying a bunch of different ones. But maybe this is why my secondary isnt closing properly. If all the rollers arent evenly touching the helix, that should mean something isnt in spec. Either the whole clutch, the moveable sheave or the helix............

No doubt when comparing different components it's not the same. Very fine line with increasing helix angle and ADDING stiffer secondary spring. One thing I have noticed is how high your belts is riding in secondary. IMO the higher you raise your belt in secondary. The LESS roller contact you will have. So it's something to look at. You want up in secondary but not to much. I have a secondary adjuster and have played with different belts and higher deflection. And the higher I have gone the less contact I get with rollers. Even with stiffer springs

 

[ClutchMaster]

With that HELIX maybe that is true. I still do NOT buy the stiffer spring needed in sidewinder. Let everyone give me all the #*$&@ they want. I can assure you with a higher straight angle helix it will not work. I fully expect to get hammered on this. But I will stick with my observations. If flashed high horse you can maybe pull these stiff secondary springs. Otherwise don't waste your money

As you should! Lol.
Actually high horsepower has nothing to do with it. The cat red/white spring came stock in the 2002 ZR600, hardly a ultra high horsepower machine. It’s the helix/spring combo that dictates how stiff and what rate you need to run.
The stock winder setup isn’t that far off as far as belt clamping goes. The 35 degree is low angle and yields good backshift for trail riding and good top speed when coupled with a soft spring. The 35* helix and soft 8jp belt has its limitations on how stiff a spring can be used, obviously figured that out with the stiffer TP orange spring.
So if you want to make the TP orange or Dalton red/black work you would need a higher angle helix to reduce belt clamping force. Trust me if you were to put a 45 degree helix in and use the Dalton red/black spring your belt would slip badly.
We are trying to fix the problem of the belt not returning to the top of the sheave, that’s the point of going to a more conventional roller secondary setup with a stiffer spring and more helix angle.
Illustrations to follow

 

[ClutchMaster]

graphic illustration of why belts are snapping after hard breaking/hard acceleration.

 

[drlee50]

Looks like boobs to me


Seriously tho, obviously you could make either work:
Stiff spring+ steep helix
Softer spring +less steep helix

Which would be better with the high hp we have and the quick spool nature of the race tunes?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

 

[SumpBuster]

I heard that too! Big Phil thanks for the Vids. Thats really messed up. Reminds me of my RR purchase experience. Have a little course in yard for kids. Brought sled home and took it around the track. Its tight and couple little jumps so you are locking up track and then hard on gas all the time. Dang thing sounded like it was going to rip the innards out of chaincase by second turn. So next time I locked up track I stopped and looked and sure enough the rollers were off helix and belt was sucked down in secondary. Got depressed cause of all the Cat belt issues and knew I would also have one. Went to dealer and was informed that that condition is normal and if you stop hard you should creep ahead a little before nailing gas again!WTF! No wonder they get their butt kicked leaving every stop. Never knew I had to wait for them to get belt back up. Put Torsional conversion on and havent had a problem since. #1 Rule taught at any decent Auto,Bike or Truck Tech School. Dont ever tell the customer how operate thier vehicle.If their is a issue fix it or at least do something.

Yeah, no one wants to be lectured how to drive...at least say you'll keep looking into it. There's a reason for everything.

 

[slowride06er]

I don't own a winder but I have a question are the engines sitting on rubber mounts?

 

[ClutchMaster]

Looks like boobs to me


Seriously tho, obviously you could make either work:
Stiff spring+ steep helix
Softer spring +less steep helix

Which would be better with the high hp we have and the quick spool nature of the race tunes?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

I like it! Boob man myself!

The softer spring & low helix combo is causing the above mentioned belt slack after hard braking/hard acceleration causing belts to break.

I should also mention that no racers I know run the soft spring & low helix combo. Most go with the stiffer springs and higher helix angles in roller applications.

Higher helix angles & stiffer spring combos tend to shift out harder and faster. If done right they have excellent backshift also.

Most guys who race the high horsepower stuff successfully will tell you to ace the softer belts. You really want to run the hardest belt you can without it slipping.

Man I’m starting to sound like a broken record here so I’ll refrain until I clutch Matt’s winder and let you know what I come up with.

 

[Soupy]

I don't own a winder but I have a question are the engines sitting on rubber mounts?

Yes