Clutch observation and issue. Calling clutch experts here.

[Big_Phil]

I think you found your issue......

Sounds like it, I found this out a while ago, but Yamaha says there is nothing wrong with the clutch. I will contact yamaha and my dealer again today and see if they will do anything for me.

Justin from FPP performance had a sidewinder at his shop with the same problem as mine, he claims they fixed it by using the purple secondary spring that hurricane likes, its a very stiff spring. Makes it hard to change belts, but I need some more snow around here to test it out. Also it seems alot of people with turned up sleds and the TP orange secondary spring (also stiff) are having issues with clutch heat. Right now I have cool running clutches.

Ive been hesitant to change too many things because it has the same issue with all the stock components. And its a nuissance to put the stock weights and springs back in to take it to the dealer. Ive had to do it a few times already.

 

[jonlafon1]

The TP orange and the Dalton black orange will not work with a straight 38 helix.AND THE PRIMARY WEIGHTS I HAVE. With TD eco trail tune(about 250 ish HP. Only change I made from last year and having tons of belt dust in secondary / not so much on primary. The sled will not pull rpm both out of hole and up top. With stock secondary spring and straight 38 it pulls 9160 out of the hole and settles around 8800 give of take 100either way depending conditions. Also more back shift with heavy springs and straight 38 compared to stocker secondary spring. With the Dalton bo. It only pulls 8400 out of hole and 8300 up top. Sorry for jijack thread but thought it interesting about the springs and straight helix with more angle

 

[jonlafon1]

Anyone know if what cat spring can be used and very close to stock secondary spring. Up riding and forgot my stock spring at home. Cat dealer near me and in need of a soft spring. Burning up my belt in secondary. Can not hold up top at all. Belt will break

 

[ClutchMaster]

Cat yellow is the closest spring to the stock winder spring. It will be slightly heavier side pressure with less twist rate, actually might be a nice test on a 35~38 helix. I would start with a 50* wrap and see how that works.

 

[shagman]

Anyone know if what cat spring can be used and very close to stock secondary spring. Up riding and forgot my stock spring at home. Cat dealer near me and in need of a soft spring. Burning up my belt in secondary. Can not hold up top at all. Belt will break

Back the TP spring back to 3-0 and try that. That will remove some of the pressure from the secondary. It was done with a stock helix with cool clutches after 3 long runs. It might get you going for now.


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[ClutchMaster]

Like I said the next size up cat red/white on a 42* should be golden. It will help eliminate this belt not returning to the top of the sheave. 35* is a little on the tight side for a tuned winder and 8jp belt. Riding trails hard I would think the 38~40 with the cat yellow or 40~42*with the cat red /white. Cat sno pro green spring would be good with 43~46* I’m not that familiar with all these new springs on the market cause I’ve been using yami and cat springs all my life. All of these setups will accomplish the same thing, maintaining belt tension. With big power and to low helix angles you can run into trouble with to much belt squeezing if the spring is to heavy. With the big power of these winders if you have to much squeeze if you hit a bump loose traction then it hooks hard you can snap belts. Usually this happens on bumpy trails where this happens repeatedly eventually fatiguing the belt. M2C

 

[ClutchMaster]

The TP orange and the Dalton black orange will not work with a straight 38 helix. Only change I made from last year and having tons of belt dust in secondary / not so much on primary. The sled will not pull rpm both out of hole and up top. With stock secondary spring and straight 38 it pulls 9160 out of the hole and settles around 8800 give of take 100either way depending conditions. Also more back shift with heavy springs and straight 38 compared to stocker secondary spring. With the Dalton bo. It only pulls 8400 out of hole and 8300 up top. Sorry for jijack thread but thought it interesting about the springs and straight helix with more angle

Dalton black/orange is very close on paper to the red/white cat. Yes this would be to stiff imo. But don’t be afraid to twist it A LOT less. 20* or 30* wrap is not unheard of because these springs have much more side force than the stock spring. Used to run an SRX BB setup with 20* wrap red/white cat spring on a 46* haulk roller secondary that was lightning fast. But remember these winder roller clutches are different.

 

[Big_Phil]

Dalton black/orange is very close on paper to the red/white cat. Yes this would be to stiff imo. But don’t be afraid to twist it A LOT less. 20* or 30* wrap is not unheard of because these springs have much more side force than the stock spring. Used to run an SRX BB setup with 20* wrap red/white cat spring on a 46* haulk roller secondary that was lightning fast. But remember these winder roller clutches are different.

You're talking about the thunder orange spring wrapped that low?

The dalton orange black is reccomend to be at 6-1 right?

Should these roller secondary's need more spring or less spring than a button clutch? Or is it not a valid comparison due to the design being different.

 

[STAIN]

Sounds like it, I found this out a while ago, but Yamaha says there is nothing wrong with the clutch. I will contact yamaha and my dealer again today and see if they will do anything for me.

Justin from FPP performance had a sidewinder at his shop with the same problem as mine, he claims they fixed it by using the purple secondary spring that hurricane likes, its a very stiff spring. Makes it hard to change belts, but I need some more snow around here to test it out. Also it seems alot of people with turned up sleds and the TP orange secondary spring (also stiff) are having issues with clutch heat. Right now I have cool running clutches.

Ive been hesitant to change too many things because it has the same issue with all the stock components. And its a nuissance to put the stock weights and springs back in to take it to the dealer. Ive had to do it a few times already.

I would see if you can make it bind without the spring. Try to find the effected area( roller?, shaft? sheeves) and maybe then you have something to show the dealer.If not maybe some sand paper would smooth the area out, unless the shaft is bent!!
I used that purple EPI the last 2 seasons on my 190 Viper. I ran it on 10deg wrap. That spring is a monster, stiffer than the TP orange for sure. I can install the TP orange myself pretty easy, the EPI purple I needed help.
I really cringe when running super heavy secondary springs, seems to be unnecessary. It seems to be inefficient. I think i am going to purchase the G-Force adjustable helix, that way I can test springs at multiple settings easily. I also think with that helix and a torque wrench you easily measure torsional force

 

[ClutchMaster]

You're talking about the thunder orange spring wrapped that low?

The dalton orange black is reccomend to be at 6-1 right?

Should these roller secondary's need more spring or less spring than a button clutch? Or is it not a valid comparison due to the design being different.

Ya know I have neither one of those springs in hand so I’m done guessing.
The Dalton Black/orange on 6-1 setting is not actually 70* because the tangs are different.
As far as rollers needing more spring, yes they generally run heavier springs with more rate.

 

[Big_Phil]

I would see if you can make it bind without the spring. Try to find the effected area( roller?, shaft? sheeves) and maybe then you have something to show the dealer.If not maybe some sand paper would smooth the area out, unless the shaft is bent!!
I used that purple EPI the last 2 seasons on my 190 Viper. I ran it on 10deg wrap. That spring is a monster, stiffer than the TP orange for sure. I can install the TP orange myself pretty easy, the EPI purple I needed help.
I really cringe when running super heavy secondary springs, seems to be unnecessary. It seems to be inefficient. I think i am going to purchase the G-Force adjustable helix, that way I can test springs at multiple settings easily. I also think with that helix and a torque wrench you easily measure torsional force

Ya ive had great results without running a crazy stiff secondary spring in the past, so was hesitant to do it now. I'm going to test a few different springs tomorrow and see if I can figure anything else out.

It won't actually bind without the spring, there's a noticeable squeak and rough spot right where it gets stuck before closing. I can't see where the rub is, Ill prob take the belt guard off later and check it out further.

 

[ClutchMaster]

I would see if you can make it bind without the spring. Try to find the effected area( roller?, shaft? sheeves) and maybe then you have something to show the dealer.If not maybe some sand paper would smooth the area out, unless the shaft is bent!!
I used that purple EPI the last 2 seasons on my 190 Viper. I ran it on 10deg wrap. That spring is a monster, stiffer than the TP orange for sure. I can install the TP orange myself pretty easy, the EPI purple I needed help.
I really cringe when running super heavy secondary springs, seems to be unnecessary. It seems to be inefficient. I think i am going to purchase the G-Force adjustable helix, that way I can test springs at multiple settings easily. I also think with that helix and a torque wrench you easily measure torsional force

I do have an EPI purple spring which is very similar to the Arctic Cat green and I can tell you that’s way too stiff with the stock 35* helix. I would not run that on anything under a 42* helix.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Ya ive had great results without running a crazy stiff secondary spring in the past, so was hesitant to do it now. I'm going to test a few different springs tomorrow and see if I can figure anything else out.

It won't actually bind without the spring, there's a noticeable squeak and rough spot right where it gets stuck before closing. I can't see where the rub is, Ill prob take the belt guard off later and check it out further.

Part of the problem is yamaha has never had a roller secondary on any of their machines before and it’s showing.
The TP orange sounds like its a little to stiff for the 35* helix and that’s fine just wrap it loose. Personally I’ve always liked the stiff springs on rollers with low wrap angles. That’s not to say you couldn’t get equal performance from a weaker spring wrapped more but then you have the issue of the belt not returning to the top of the secondary. M2C

 

[Snowaddict]

The stock winder spring is one of the wimpiest springs I have ever seen on a roller secondary. So saying crazy heavy really shouldn’t be the term used. I run the STM orange secondary spring and let me tell you it’s extremely heavy, way more side pressure than any other secondary spring out there by far. I love it!
Part of the problem is yamaha has never had a roller secondary on any of their machines before and it’s showing.
The TP orange sounds like its a little to stiff for the 35* helix and that’s fine just wrap it loose. Personally I’ve always liked the stiff springs on rollers with low wrap angles. That’s not to say you couldn’t get equal performance from a weaker spring wrapped more but then you have the issue of the belt not returning to the top of the secondary. M2C

What are your thoughts on stock (no tune) 35/39 Helix, TP clutch kit and TP orange secondary spring (right now wrapped at 2-3)? Ok? Wrap 0-3? Try different spring (Dalton black/orange), or back to stock spring?

 

[ClutchMaster]

What are your thoughts on stock (no tune) 35/39 Helix, TP clutch kit and TP orange secondary spring (right now wrapped at 2-3)? Ok? Wrap 0-3? Try different spring (Dalton black/orange), or back to stock spring?

Well that sounds like the right direction to me.

I would assume your running an 8jp belt correct? If the clutches aren’t hot and you like the upshift/backshift I would say your good to go. If you wanted a little more grunt in the low/midrange yea take it down to 1-3 or 0-3. You might have to pull a little tip weight to get the rpms back up. I would bet those clutches will still run cool at those settings.