Excessive body roll and heavy steering?

[MCApex44]

Keep in mind that many of us on here are fanatics and perfectionists. We aren't looking for a sled that just works well (as the Apex does IMO 100% stock right from Yamaha - at least once you get the rear spring adjusted to Yamaha's 40-45 mm spec), we're looking for perfection. We want everything dialed in "just right" to get the most out of our sleds for the way we ride (some want cornering and handling like myself, some want to be the fastest on the lake, etc.).

Looking at your signature you've got a nice setup. Find some snow and go riding. If the snow conditions are good I expect you'll be extremely happy with your sled.[/quote]

Thanks ReX...that eases my mind.

By any chance...will you be riding in the North Bay area Feb.8th-11th? It would certainly be great to meet up with ya and pick your brain some.

 

[SledFreak]

I am so freakin confused! 6" carbides vs 8" carbides...less pre-load vs more pre-load...transfer...limiter straps...sway bars etc. (those topics as well as the handle bar updates, overheating issues, bigger spring for 180+lb rider, how many studs(down the middle only?), bad wheels, bad stock ski's, chain case cover leaking, anti rub kit, marg snow kit, 4th wheel kit, antifreeze ratio, C-clip position, clanking noise at slow speeds, inacurate dream-o-meter, darting, shimming--did I miss anything??). Holy crap already! The TY forum is probably the most visited Yamaha site for Yamaha owners...why isnt there a Yamaha rep on here to answer questions?

When I brought the carbide topic up months ago...it seemed that if I was 'not' going switch to aftermarket ski's...the 8" woodys doolys would be the way to go. I tt Kevin at Port Yamaha before the purchase and with the amount of studs and my weight...he thought the 8" doolys would do the trick.

My thought process was always the less pre-load(the lower the sled sits) the better the cornering. More pre-load(the higher the sled sits) the sled is better for the bumps but will be more tippy when cornering. I compare it to if you pushed someone while they are standing straight up with their knees locked they would lose their balance easier compared to if the person had their knees bent(lower center of gravity--more stable).

Yes, this is my first Yamaha after years on Arctic Cats(last two years on an F7). On the F7...ski lift out of a corner was a bit more than a ZR chassis but it didnt bother me one bit(I would just stay on the gas and just ride it out or lean into it). Are you guys that are having problems with the sled being "tippy" leaning at all or are you just sitting straight up and letting the sled dictate(do you walk your dog or does your dog walk you)? The dealer said the sled is set-up/prepped for the riders/buyers weight. So is it the sled that needs all these changes/adjustments or is it the rider that needs to adjust to the sled?

Yes, my F7 is an 05' so I didnt have to deal with the "first year" issues(like the 03' F7 buyers did) but I am starting to question my decision on that I bought the 06' Apex since it was the first year of the Apex. Granted...I knew that I would have to take some actions/steps to set up the Apex which would allow for everything to be 'just right' before the season started(and I am willing to put the time and money into doing so). Again...I am really confused at this point. I am/have been reading the topics on this forum and its tug-of-war on many issues/concerns. I have been to 3 dealers and talked to each of them about various topics and get three different answers as well. If you ask me about sports I am very knowledgable but I am a mechanical IDIOT when it comes to this stuff. I can ride like the wind but wouldnt know where to start if the thing broke down. Therefore...I need to gather info...find out what is the "right way" and pay someone to do it--but thats the problem...seems it is harder than heck to find the "right" answer.

Sorry for the rant(and long message). I didnt realize I typed that much till I went back and read it.

OK, This is what I did...... Increased the Preload on the front 3 turns on my GT shocks. Tighten the limiter strap two holes. Set the control rod to min. Shim the skis.... It will rail.....

 

[ReX]

I do agree with the technique of lightening up on front spring pre-load, and using limiter strap settings and transfer settings to control body roll and handling. Front shock preload should be bumped up just to prevent bottoming. My only concern is with any differences with the GT rear shock being so much softer than the ER's. I did use the same techniques on my Polaris and worked pretty well, short of increasing swaybar thickness.

The spring rate for the monoshock spring and rider weight do make a big difference in the optimum setup for these sleds.

For example with my 05 RX-1 it was virtually impossible to keep the skis on the ground with the stock spring setup (4.5 kg/mm). With me around 230 lbs ready to ride I had the weight transfer on minimum and the limiter tightened all the way and it still lifted the skis off the ground every time I opened up the throttle (very annoying when exiting a corner). A big part of the problem was I wasn't able to hit the 40-45mm spec for the rear spring (with the c-clip in the stock position and the stock spring, even with the cam on the highest setting the shock was compressing too much under my weight). This was the first year for the monoshock and pretty much no-one (myself included) new how to set them up.

As I increased the c-clip setting to get more spring preload the handling improved a lot, but I still needed the limiter pulled up 2 holes and the weight transfer almost on minimum to get what I wanted.

Once I installed the heavy spring (6.5 kg/mm) it was a totally different sled. I was able to loosen off the limiter 1 hole and increase the weight transfer setting and I was still able to keep the skis on the ground while exiting a corner under power.

All this to say, yes the spring stiffness and your weight will definitely change the characteristics of the sled. The most important thing that needs to be right is the right spring for your weight and the right spring preload to meed Yamaha's specs. These days your Yamaha dealer should set this up for you before you leave the showroom.

 

[ReX]

By any chance...will you be riding in the North Bay area Feb.8th-11th? It would certainly be great to meet up with ya and pick your brain some.

Is there a TY ride in North Bay?

I'm hoping to do lots of sledding this season. It's possible I could be in the area.

 

[schmeg]

I only weight 150 so I have slightly different concerns from the typical rider setup.Sledfreak, what are you running for a ski/carbide setup. Studded? Hows the ski pressure with that setup?
Nice thing about suspension tweaking, you can always go back!

I just got my new 8" bergstroms with 1/4 inch ski savers. I am running 144 singles.doubles down the middle.

 

[ReX]

OK, This is what I did...... Increased the Preload on the front 3 turns on my GT shocks. Tighten the limiter strap two holes. Set the control rod to min. Shim the skis.... It will rail.....

Yep, that setup will definitely rail. The skis will be planted hard all the time and you can even exit corners with WOT with the skis still planted (and kick the back end out).

I have tried that setup and it would be great for all out aggressive trail riding, but the rear skid really doesn't soak up the bumps like it can (rougher ride), there is virtually no weight transfer (straight line acceleration isn't very good), and the steering gets a little heavy.

Probably the closest thing to what TY purists call "Viper" handling...

 

[SledFreak]

I only weight 150 so I have slightly different concerns from the typical rider setup.Sledfreak, what are you running for a ski/carbide setup. Studded? Hows the ski pressure with that setup?
Nice thing about suspension tweaking, you can always go back!

I just got my new 8" bergstroms with 1/4 inch ski savers. I am running 144 singles.doubles down the middle.

I weigh 170 and have 8" woody's and 120 studs down the middle, but I am a very agressive driver, so I need it to turn when I want it to turn. The back end needs to slide around the corner for me.
Ontario trails are fast and smooth, once you are cruising from 60-100 mph, it pretty much pulls the same with either setup. It's only from 0-30 where you really need the transfer and that is not really required for Northern Ontario trails. Now when I go play on the lakes and fields with my buddies, all I do is put the limiter back to the stock position and put the control rod set to max and hold on.

 

[jds1000]

I am so freakin confused! 6" carbides vs 8" carbides...less pre-load vs more pre-load...transfer...limiter straps...sway bars etc. (those topics as well as the handle bar updates, overheating issues, bigger spring for 180+lb rider, how many studs(down the middle only?), bad wheels, bad stock ski's, chain case cover leaking, anti rub kit, marg snow kit, 4th wheel kit, antifreeze ratio, C-clip position, clanking noise at slow speeds, inacurate dream-o-meter, darting, shimming--did I miss anything??). Holy crap already! The TY forum is probably the most visited Yamaha site for Yamaha owners...why isnt there a Yamaha rep on here to answer questions?

When I brought the carbide topic up months ago...it seemed that if I was 'not' going switch to aftermarket ski's...the 8" woodys doolys would be the way to go. I tt Kevin at Port Yamaha before the purchase and with the amount of studs and my weight...he thought the 8" doolys would do the trick.

My thought process was always the less pre-load(the lower the sled sits) the better the cornering. More pre-load(the higher the sled sits) the sled is better for the bumps but will be more tippy when cornering. I compare it to if you pushed someone while they are standing straight up with their knees locked they would lose their balance easier compared to if the person had their knees bent(lower center of gravity--more stable).

Yes, this is my first Yamaha after years on Arctic Cats(last two years on an F7). On the F7...ski lift out of a corner was a bit more than a ZR chassis but it didnt bother me one bit(I would just stay on the gas and just ride it out or lean into it). Are you guys that are having problems with the sled being "tippy" leaning at all or are you just sitting straight up and letting the sled dictate(do you walk your dog or does your dog walk you)? The dealer said the sled is set-up/prepped for the riders/buyers weight. So is it the sled that needs all these changes/adjustments or is it the rider that needs to adjust to the sled?

Yes, my F7 is an 05' so I didnt have to deal with the "first year" issues(like the 03' F7 buyers did) but I am starting to question my decision on that I bought the 06' Apex since it was the first year of the Apex. Granted...I knew that I would have to take some actions/steps to set up the Apex which would allow for everything to be 'just right' before the season started(and I am willing to put the time and money into doing so). Again...I am really confused at this point. I am/have been reading the topics on this forum and its tug-of-war on many issues/concerns. I have been to 3 dealers and talked to each of them about various topics and get three different answers as well. If you ask me about sports I am very knowledgable but I am a mechanical IDIOT when it comes to this stuff. I can ride like the wind but wouldnt know where to start if the thing broke down. Therefore...I need to gather info...find out what is the "right way" and pay someone to do it--but thats the problem...seems it is harder than heck to find the "right" answer.

Sorry for the rant(and long message). I didnt realize I typed that much till I went back and read it.

I understand what you are saying. I read all this stuff and it gives me a headache!! Well if its any consolation to you I have an 06 ER and last season all I did was put 6 inch shaper bars on it and it rode and handled awesome! I didn't do any other adjustments. The only thing I noticed was while riding up in Canada it would dart more than I liked on certain trail conditions. This year I put a set of 07 Piolt skis on it and I will see how much of a difference it will make. The only thing I will caution is that while shiming skis will help reduce darting it will also make your sled steer much harder and feel heavier up front. Your coming off a Firecat which is the sled that made me quit buying Cats. After 15 years of Cats only I hated the 03 Firecat so much that I bought a Ski Doo and now a Yamaha. I think you will love your Apex over the Firecrap and don't let all these guys with all the mentioned problems scare you because compared to any Cat I ever owned my Apex is the most trouble free sled I've had!

 

[welterracer]

You guys make it way more difficult than it is..


If you want it to RAIL... Get a 13mm swaybar.. THATS IT.....


The sleds Handle great in stock form.. they just have excesiive ski lift (but it is controllable if you LEAN)

 

[ReX]

You guys make it way more difficult than it is..


If you want it to RAIL... Get a 13mm swaybar.. THATS IT.....


The sleds Handle great in stock form.. they just have excesiive ski lift (but it is controllable if you LEAN)

Brian, don't knock it until you've tried it.

If you try SledFreak's setup you will be absolutely amazed at the cornering ability of the Apex. That "excessive ski lift" you talk about is completely gone. Just installing a 13mm sway bar doesn't get you anywhere close to that level. You probably won't like the lack of hookup, nor the reduced ride compliance, nor the way the sled tends to nose dive if you get any air but if you're riding aggressively on tight twisty trails or high speed trails you'll be totally blown away with how incredibly fast you can corner and accelerate out of corners.

If you try it, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you add the limiter strap to your arsenal of tuning tools.

Next time you go out riding on good hard packed trails with one of your buddies who rides the trails fast, try setting your sled up as SledFreak does before you head out. You'll probably leave your buddy in the dust and he won't understand how you can suddenly corner so fast.

 

[cmall531]

what is the stock limiter strap setting mine is in the longest position haven't touched it

 

[Racy2]

SledFreak is right with his recomendation about setting a sled up to go fast in the trails. No sled will do all things great. It depends on each ones taste and what you want to do.

 

[welterracer]

You guys make it way more difficult than it is..


If you want it to RAIL... Get a 13mm swaybar.. THATS IT.....


The sleds Handle great in stock form.. they just have excesiive ski lift (but it is controllable if you LEAN)

Brian, don't knock it until you've tried it.

If you try SledFreak's setup you will be absolutely amazed at the cornering ability of the Apex. That "excessive ski lift" you talk about is completely gone. Just installing a 13mm sway bar doesn't get you anywhere close to that level. You probably won't like the lack of hookup, nor the reduced ride compliance, nor the way the sled tends to nose dive if you get any air but if you're riding aggressively on tight twisty trails or high speed trails you'll be totally blown away with how incredibly fast you can corner and accelerate out of corners.

If you try it, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you add the limiter strap to your arsenal of tuning tools.

Next time you go out riding on good hard packed trails with one of your buddies who rides the trails fast, try setting your sled up as SledFreak does before you head out. You'll probably leave your buddy in the dust and he won't understand how you can suddenly corner so fast.

Your right ... i wouldnt like it... WHy would you want to give up ride and weight transfer when you can have the best of both worlds? (ride will always be the most important thing to me.. THe days of the old viper have shown me the light..

13mm swaybar... weight transfer set at maximum and away ya go..

 

[SledFreak]

Sorry to tell you, But there is no way in hell you would be able to drive in or out of the corners faster than my setup. I'm not disagreeing that the 13mm sway bar does not work, but setting the weight transfer to max and trying to steer it is improssible unless you are taking baby steps in the corner or you are 400lbs and you are muscling it through, but for the more than average guy that drives fast in and out of the corners, that will not work. How can you get on the throttle coming out of the corner when you're skis are in the air. You will hit a tree before you know. I am one for using snow banks to make my turns, but your setup would never work for me.

 

[Apsterbobed]