Forgot just what a blast these Winders are!

[Wingwong]

I meant the old Ski doo Tundra. Even the new Skidoo Tundra looks non-sport.

Lol, leave it to the Car guy to think you were referencing a Toyota.
Post edited: Jan.17@5:07pm

 

[rnusr01]

Canada only-damn communist. LOL

 

[Mototown]

I raced a flashed turbo ace today ( 185-190 hp) . It wasn't very fast , 270 flash walks right away from it . And the owner had nothing good to say about the massive throttle delay between the turbo lag & the cable less throttle...lol

 

[KnappAttack]

I raced a flashed turbo ace today ( 185-190 hp) . It wasn't very fast , 270 flash walks right away from it . And the owner had nothing good to say about the massive throttle delay between the turbo lag & the cable less throttle...lol

Best an 900T is ever going to do with a tune is equal a bone stock Winder. They are not going to be any faster than that at best. They have weak PTO stubs on them and will not take the power. Pretty wimpy engines they are. Have a buddy that took a clutched and tuned 1200 NA and outran a stock 900T last week. A turbo 1200 is a much better option if you want a Ski-Doo. Yes, the ITIC throttle is less than perfect. Don't know why they keep messing with that system.

There was a time I would have been interested in a 900T, was watching them close, but to find out the engine is so lacking and weak, I have no interest. Great chassis though. Even one of the tuners told me you DON'T want one of those things Mike. I think he knows I would expect more than they can offer.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Agree....the 900t will never be a replacement for us. Just will be near impossible to step down to that low of power, even with Dave's 205 tune the 900t will feel like a stock Winder, which is a long time ago for me.

I still have not rode one, but I do hear good things from a local guy here who has one. Works well in tight trails, and he is happy coming off a stock 1200xs. Nice BRP finally gave the good shocks to the 4s gang, but that engine is just not aimed at hi perf.

So lets keep re-engineering these Winders and get them all worked out! Sure cannot beat the giggle factor of this Winder, the boatload of arm stretching power is undeniable.

Dan

 

[XP123]

Agree....the 900t will never be a replacement for us. Just will be near impossible to step down to that low of power, even with Dave's 205 tune the 900t will feel like a stock Winder, which is a long time ago for me.

I still have not rode one, but I do hear good things from a local guy here who has one. Works well in tight trails, and he is happy coming off a stock 1200xs. Nice BRP finally gave the good shocks to the 4s gang, but that engine is just not aimed at hi perf.

So lets keep re-engineering these Winders and get them all worked out! Sure cannot beat the giggle factor of this Winder, the boatload of arm stretching power is undeniable.

Dan

No doubt Dan if it's big power you are looking for the Sidewinder is by far the best choice but it does come at a price. I found myself constantly doing preventative fixes on my Winder along with constantly worrying about this or that.
Had the big power been my number 1 priority I would have kept my Winder. You're doing the right thing with all the fixes and other things that most of us just don't have the time or knowledge. The Winder issues are real and not just internet hype. It's too bad Yamaha has turned it's back on many of these problems acting like they don't exist. Guys like you and Mike Knapp have done an excellent job rectifying many of these issues but where does it end? I enjoy week long saddlebag trips and things like belt life, fuel mileage and turn key reliability are more important to me then 200 plus hp. Last year on my 7 day trip up in Temiscaming I spent most of my time worrying about potential issues. I took my Apex on an 1800 mile saddlebag trip in northern Ontario back in 07 and never worried about that sled. I don't get the same comfort with the Winder.

If by some miracle Yamaha decides to built their own sled I will definitely look at another one. I will however never buy another sled designed and built by Cat no matter how good the engine is.

 

[1nc 2000]

No doubt Dan if it's big power you are looking for the Sidewinder is by far the best choice but it does come at a price. I found myself constantly doing preventative fixes on my Winder along with constantly worrying about this or that.
Had the big power been my number 1 priority I would have kept my Winder. You're doing the right thing with all the fixes and other things that most of us just don't have the time or knowledge. The Winder issues are real and not just internet hype. It's too bad Yamaha has turned it's back on many of these problems acting like they don't exist. Guys like you and Mike Knapp have done an excellent job rectifying many of these issues but where does it end? I enjoy week long saddlebag trips and things like belt life, fuel mileage and turn key reliability are more important to me then 200 plus hp. Last year on my 7 day trip up in Temiscaming I spent most of my time worrying about potential issues. I took my Apex on an 1800 mile saddlebag trip in northern Ontario back in 07 and never worried about that sled. I don't get the same comfort with the Winder.

If by some miracle Yamaha decides to built their own sled I will definitely look at another one. I will however never buy another sled designed and built by Cat no matter how good the engine is.

You crack me up with all your negativity towards the sidewinder.
I don't have all the issues people speak of on here. I clean and maintain my clutches regularly and just ride. Tuned also.
Enjoy your mini z.

 

[ApexXTX/Viper]

No doubt Dan if it's big power you are looking for the Sidewinder is by far the best choice but it does come at a price. I found myself constantly doing preventative fixes on my Winder along with constantly worrying about this or that.
Had the big power been my number 1 priority I would have kept my Winder. You're doing the right thing with all the fixes and other things that most of us just don't have the time or knowledge. The Winder issues are real and not just internet hype. It's too bad Yamaha has turned it's back on many of these problems acting like they don't exist. Guys like you and Mike Knapp have done an excellent job rectifying many of these issues but where does it end? I enjoy week long saddlebag trips and things like belt life, fuel mileage and turn key reliability are more important to me then 200 plus hp. Last year on my 7 day trip up in Temiscaming I spent most of my time worrying about potential issues. I took my Apex on an 1800 mile saddlebag trip in northern Ontario back in 07 and never worried about that sled. I don't get the same comfort with the Winder.

If by some miracle Yamaha decides to built their own sled I will definitely look at another one. I will however never buy another sled designed and built by Cat no matter how good the engine is.

My sentiments exactly. My wife and I saddlebag 2-3 times a year in the Cochrane-Temiscaming area you mentioned. My Sidewinder (and now SRX) and her Viper are a constant worry. In the "old days", when we had several Apex/Vector combinations, all we worried about was having a fresh set of sliders on each sled and plan our route so that a Yamaha dealer was at the trip's half-way point for new hyfax. Duponts came along and fixed that. Now you almost have to worry about every square inch of the sled (except the Yammi motor). It seems like every clamp leaks and needs to be tightened, every seal and gasket leaks and needs replacement or updating, sight glass magically disappears, gas tanks whistle, Torx bolts that are practically guaranteed to strip, etc. The list goes on and on. The thin plastic 8" wheels on the SRX skid look like a case of when not if. Let's not even talk about removing mufflers (and not having replacement $27 muffler gaskets on hand) to adjust chaincase tension or removing the entire reverse mechanism to add chaincase fluid in a parking lot at -35 degrees! That being said, upon returning home, a 120 mph blast down the lake makes you forget about just about everything and life is good!

 

[XP123]

You crack me up with all your negativity towards the sidewinder.
I don't have all the issues people speak of on here. I clean and maintain my clutches regularly and just ride. Tuned also.
Enjoy your mini z.

I'm not being negative about the Winder. This is just how I feel and maybe that's my problem and not the sleds. I'm not the one posting all the issues with these sleds. I'm the guy reading all this stuff and it makes me worry about it. If I rode locally all the time where I was only a half days ride from home I would still be riding it with little to no worries. I go backpacking and I can't afford to have trips shortened by poor engineering.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

No doubt Dan if it's big power you are looking for the Sidewinder is by far the best choice but it does come at a price. I found myself constantly doing preventative fixes on my Winder along with constantly worrying about this or that.
Had the big power been my number 1 priority I would have kept my Winder. You're doing the right thing with all the fixes and other things that most of us just don't have the time or knowledge. The Winder issues are real and not just internet hype. It's too bad Yamaha has turned it's back on many of these problems acting like they don't exist. Guys like you and Mike Knapp have done an excellent job rectifying many of these issues but where does it end? I enjoy week long saddlebag trips and things like belt life, fuel mileage and turn key reliability are more important to me then 200 plus hp. Last year on my 7 day trip up in Temiscaming I spent most of my time worrying about potential issues. I took my Apex on an 1800 mile saddlebag trip in northern Ontario back in 07 and never worried about that sled. I don't get the same comfort with the Winder.

If by some miracle Yamaha decides to built their own sled I will definitely look at another one. I will however never buy another sled designed and built by Cat no matter how good the engine is.

You ride with your wife and were stock if I recall? The winder stock works as advertised IMO. Most the stock guys will have long belt life, long roller life, long clutch life.

I believe you used to love owning the fastest production sled built. LOL

Stepping down to the 900t is not something most guys will be able to do, who ride hard and are used to the big power. Its alot easier for you I assume since you are not out riding hard.

I try to be more open minded nowadays with sleds....I ride with many DOOS and always can see their great engineering and other good points. But there is a ton of stuff BRP does that drives me away too. We removed buds plastics and was shocked brp actually made it more involved to remove plastics with the G4. Just ridiculous. The way BRP charges extra to get customers cash, for LED lights drives me nuts. The yellow halogen bulbs never should have been used on the g4 IMO. Same old gauges they ran for how many yrs now...Typical BRP milking the customer. And no 129'' for me personally is a huge mistake, My buds 600r XRS 129 is the perfect sled for my area. Not a fan of the gade with that massive tunnel out the back on G4. And in the end, the look just still to this day is just butt ugly.

I would however appreciate the handling locally for me on weekends after trails are pounded, I swap often with buds 850 and 600r XRS's and they truly are a blast to pound through the junk. Have not rode the heavier 900t yet but hear it works well in junk too, I like that BRP finally gave the 4s guys some decent shocks, albeit still not as good as the Qs3r with 5/8'' shafts. But well suited for the lighter 900t for sure.

In the end, the 900t engine just is not even in same realm as the 998. The iTC is DOOs way of masking the poor "long intake" design they have been plagued with since day one, since they are dead set on the engine sitting low in pan, the long intake design to fit the Jshaft in place, just will never be snappy without the quirky/odd feeling electronic throttle. Its a shame BRP did not want to boost the 1200 and go head to head with the mighty Winder 998. The yellow goggle gang talking about a MachZ for '20 IMO is dreaming, BRP does not want to enter this true perf game. Even though it would benefit us all if they did.

Dan

 

[XP123]

My sentiments exactly. My wife and I saddlebag 2-3 times a year in the Cochrane-Temiscaming area you mentioned. My Sidewinder (and now SRX) and her Viper are a constant worry. In the "old days", when we had several Apex/Vector combinations, all we worried about was having a fresh set of sliders on each sled and plan our route so that a Yamaha dealer was at the trip's half-way point for new hyfax. Duponts came along and fixed that. Now you almost have to worry about every square inch of the sled (except the Yammi motor). It seems like every clamp leaks and needs to be tightened, every seal and gasket leaks and needs replacement or updating, sight glass magically disappears, gas tanks whistle, Torx bolts that are practically guaranteed to strip, etc. The list goes on and on. The thin plastic 8" wheels on the SRX skid look like a case of when not if. Let's not even talk about removing mufflers (and not having replacement $27 muffler gaskets on hand) to adjust chaincase tension or removing the entire reverse mechanism to add chaincase fluid in a parking lot at -35 degrees! That being said, upon returning home, a 120 mph blast down the lake makes you forget about just about everything and life is good!

No doubt the sidewinder performs awesome and puts a big smile on your face. Another thing is it flat out rides and handles awesome. The Cat chassis works as good as any and the Yamaha engine is the best in the biz. I just think it needs more Yamaha and less Cat DNA.

 

[KnappAttack]

You crack me up with all your negativity towards the sidewinder.
I don't have all the issues people speak of on here. I clean and maintain my clutches regularly and just ride. Tuned also.
Enjoy your mini z.

I think Joe's concerns are valid. No doubt the Ski-Doo is much better engineered and a much better gas and go machine. These Cats need constant attention and re-worked to be reliable where you feel comfortable with them. It's a concern for me too. I have gone from one end of the machine to the other to improve the things Cat missed or botched. If you don't, it could leave you stranded or with a real big repair bill. Thanks to this forum I have been able to drastically improve the poor Cat engineering and weak points. It has taken a great deal of money and time to get it there too. Most people don't have the time or knowledge to re-work these things properly, nor should we have to. Doo does the engineering up front and theres a reason they are #1 in sales by a long shot. They just have a flat out better product. That said, they have nothing I want right now, if I went back to Doo it would be a 1200 and not the weak 900t. Only thing keeping me on a Winder is I finally have it where I want it and I really like the power, ride, handling and ergos on it. It's tested my patience I can tell you that, it's not been easy.

IMO Cat will not survive long term if they don't make a big turn around. Not sure where Yamaha will end up, but if they stick with Cat they too will fail. Power can't hold off the inevitable forever. Also the three-cylinder 998 has some issues that can not be solved, harmonics is the big one with eating clutches for breakfast. Yamaha needs that four-cylinder back in the lineup to survive, and they have to get it in a light chassis that really works other than the Cat. Thats the bottom line. Doo is too good right now for some of the others to survive. If you don't bring a quality product to market, you'll fail to thrive in this internet age.

 

[XP123]

You ride with your wife and were stock if I recall? The winder stock works as advertised IMO. Most the stock guys will have long belt life, long roller life, long clutch life.

I believe you used to love owning the fastest production sled built. LOL

Stepping down to the 900t is not something most guys will be able to do, who ride hard and are used to the big power. Its alot easier for you I assume since you are not out riding hard.

I try to be more open minded nowadays with sleds....I ride with many DOOS and always can see their great engineering and other good points. But there is a ton of stuff BRP does that drives me away too. We removed buds plastics and was shocked brp actually made it more involved to remove plastics with the G4. Just ridiculous. The way BRP charges extra to get customers cash, for LED lights drives me nuts. The yellow halogen bulbs never should have been used on the g4 IMO. Same old gauges they ran for how many yrs now...Typical BRP milking the customer. And no 129'' for me personally is a huge mistake, My buds 600r XRS 129 is the perfect sled for my area. Not a fan of the gade with that massive tunnel out the back on G4. And in the end, the look just still to this day is just butt ugly.

I would however appreciate the handling locally for me on weekends after trails are pounded, I swap often with buds 850 and 600r XRS's and they truly are a blast to pound through the junk. Have not rode the heavier 900t yet but hear it works well in junk too, I like that BRP finally gave the 4s guys some decent shocks, albeit still not as good as the Qs3r with 5/8'' shafts. But well suited for the lighter 900t for sure.

In the end, the 900t engine just is not even in same realm as the 998. The iTC is DOOs way of masking the poor "long intake" design they have been plagued with since day one, since they are dead set on the engine sitting low in pan, the long intake design to fit the Jshaft in place, just will never be snappy without the quirky/odd feeling electronic throttle. Its a shame BRP did not want to boost the 1200 and go head to head with the mighty Winder 998. The yellow goggle gang talking about a MachZ for '20 IMO is dreaming, BRP does not want to enter this true perf game. Even though it would benefit us all if they did.

Dan

The 900T will not compete with the Winder and the Doo guys are dreaming if they think a Mach Z Sidewinder killer is coming.

 

[WinderFab]

I’m still on a eps apex but my riding buddy has an 17 winder ltx 270 TD tune and it hasn’t gaven him any problems except 3 blown belts and he’s no small guy and rides hard. 17 000 + km’s on his winder

 

[XP123]

I think Joe's concerns are valid. No doubt the Ski-Doo is much better engineered and a much better gas and go machine. These Cats need constant attention and re-worked to be reliable where you feel comfortable with them. It's a concern for me too. I have gone from one end of the machine to the other to improve the things Cat missed or botched. If you don't, it could leave you stranded or with a real big repair bill. Thanks to this forum I have been able to drastically improve the poor Cat engineering and weak points. It has taken a great deal of money and time to get it there too. Most people don't have the time or knowledge to re-work these things properly, nor should we have to. Doo does the engineering up front and theres a reason they are #1 in sales by a long shot. They just have a flat out better product. That said, they have nothing I want right now, if I went back to Doo it would be a 1200 and not the weak 900t. Only thing keeping me on a Winder is I finally have it where I want it and I really like the power, ride, handling and ergos on it. It's tested my patience I can tell you that, it's not been easy.

IMO Cat will not survive long term if they don't make a big turn around. Not sure where Yamaha will end up, but if they stick with Cat they too will fail. Power can't hold off the inevitable forever. Also the three-cylinder 998 has some issues that can not be solved, harmonics is the big one with eating clutches for breakfast. Yamaha needs that four-cylinder back in the lineup to survive, and they have to get it in a light chassis that really works other than the Cat. Thats the bottom line. Doo is too good right now for some of the others to survive. If you don't bring a quality product to market, you'll fail to thrive in this internet age.

Thanks Mike I didn't want to come across as basher of the Winder but I guess that's the way guys are taking it. I won't be posting anymore about it and if guys go on DooTalk I have never posted anything negative about the Winder even though many there would love if I did.