My RTX LE 50th BUILD THREAD-ROCKERDAN

[Fast]

Hurricane Alignment Bar


Finally got the sled all back together today, and got time to work on the clutches. This is the first time I set Dave's bar onto my clutches. I don't want to give out Daves specs, as I believe everyone should buy one of these and set theirs up, since not all the tolerances are same from sled to sled.

At the end of last season I removed 4mm from my secondary hub backside(where it sets against the shims). I ran that on my last trip, with a 1.5mm shim.

Today I set Dave's bar on and I was still not back far enough to meet Dave's alignment bar correctly. So I removed the 1.5mm shim, and then the offset was perfect with Dave's bar. So for me, I had to remove a full 4mm and have ALL SHIMS REMOVED, so now the hub is directly against the circlip.

*NOTE: Its important to understand not all sleds clutches are the same, and my primary clutch may be pushed in by 1mm or so, possibly from a snapped belt slamming primary together and pushing stub shaft inward. So 3mm machining of secondary hub may be enough for many.

See the next post on my thoughts on float with the new offset......

Dan

Pics of the Hurricane alignment bar.....
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Dan, great post by the way, just wondering how is it possible that the stub shaft could move? shouldn't we be focusing on this since it seems like the root cause to all these issues

 

[hibshman25]

Dan,

You can easily control float and still use my adjuster. I originally supplied 4 small washers that seat between the float plug and the adjuster core. These washers are small enough that they fit inside the hub and permit what you deem as excessive float. If you want to limit the float replace the last washer that mates against the float plug with a larger washer that does not fit inside the hub. This large washer will restrict the hub from moving outward. With a stock non modified spacer/float plug the large washer limits float to around 1.5mm on my xtx winder here in the shop. Using the large washer will cause the adjuster to bottom out sooner when running it in for a belt change, but I was still able to get the belt off no problem. This is 2018....don't go back to days of shims between sheaves! Ha

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Dan,
Great post and thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with all of us. You just answered a question that has been plaguing me for the last 2 seasons. Here's why:

A lot of my riding is high speed RR bed riding. I'll run 1-1.5 miles high 120s/low 130s, slow down to 90-100, round a corner, open up another mile 130, slowdown, round corner open up another stretch 130-133 for 1.5 miles, etc, etc, over and over for 30-40 miles. As you can imagine, this is very hard on belts. Many times while doing this I've experienced severe belt slip at approximately 117mph. At this speed you would think it would be impossible to smell belt slippage, yet I smell it so bad that I can only compare it to holding brake on in parking lot while holding throttle wide open. For years I've been perplexed as to the cause of this. I just read your post and you provided the answer. At high speeds the secondary is shifted out causing a lot of float, then when I deccelerate for a corner, the clutch floats to the outside. When I get in it again the secondary is so out of line the belt slips/burns.

What are your thoughts??

I'm leaning towards adjusting deflection using shims like you and mounting fixed secondary with no float.

Will eliminating float conversely create heat upon deceleration? Thoughts?

There are many theories on float vs locked down secondaries....Yamaha was one of the companies that had float from factory the longest. My old Machs all had float until doo went to the QRS(roller) secondaries. It seems once companies went to rollers, most eliminated the float and went to a fixed secondary on Jshaft.

The problem is, the clutches never line up perfectly throughout the entire shift range, so floating seems to make sense in hopes the secondary can increase its range by moving in/out along with the primary. Makes sense. But when you actually put pressure on the belt, the secondary wont float as its too tight. So accelerating in particular its gonna stay put. But decel when there is less belt tension the secondary sure wants to move outward when you watch it on a stand.

Most drag racers like them locked down at the spot they like for offset....Dave and I had a good discussion on this at the show. What I think is not mentioned by anyone, is the shear amount of distance of float in this design. Its more then Apex ever had, and when you push secondary inward, now you have also increased that float distance on everything that is not down at idle when helix comes out and touches adjuster. Then add in these adjusters, and its even more.

With your scenario, which is very high speeds.....Im not sure you would have the issue as much. Reason is, at those speeds your probably close to 1 to 1 ratio, so you are deeper into the shift, so the secondary really would not come outward much since the primary and belt is holding secondary inward. I think secondary only floats outward alot when you are at much slower speeds, like corner to corner maybe speeds from 50ish down to 5 at a sharp corner, then hard on throttle back to 50 over and over....Not only is this hard on belts anyway, but my theory is the secondary may be floating outward as you really slow down, then grab a handful and its likely at upwards of 62++mm offset if not more, who really knows as it can float outward alot with those adjuster designs.

So is the magic number on Hurricane bar is much lower then 62mm(which we all know it is) then everytime you crack throttle is out of alignment for a split second until the secondary floats back inward, which it does quickly. But over and over corner to corner, sure could be an issue as I see it.

I think its all about testing new things....When the winder was released, I talked to the guy test riding it in 2016 way before they were ever sold....I asked him about belts and why the 2 sleds I was looking at I could see rubber on guard....he told me he went through several belts! He said they beat the sled hard and that was why. I dont think yamaha has put enough time into belts/clutches on the winder....Something is different with these compared to apex.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Dan, great post by the way, just wondering how is it possible that the stub shaft could move? shouldn't we be focusing on this since it seems like the root cause to all these issues

The thought is if you blow a belt under HARD acceleration, the snapped belt allows the primary movable sheave to smack shut into the fixed sheave, and the momentum bangs the entire bearing inward with the stub shaft. I have not looked at others close enough, but mine sure seems to have approx .7mm space that I can see easily.

This amount is far less then amt of offset I needed to gain to get to hurricane bar specs....So its not the main problem by any means, but does contribute to having to take more off the secondary hub when machining.

I still want to see results from this lowered offset before I jump on bandwagon that the offset is indeed the issue.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Dan,

You can easily control float and still use my adjuster. I originally supplied 4 small washers that seat between the float plug and the adjuster core. These washers are small enough that they fit inside the hub and permit what you deem as excessive float. If you want to limit the float replace the last washer that mates against the float plug with a larger washer that does not fit inside the hub. This large washer will restrict the hub from moving outward. With a stock non modified spacer/float plug the large washer limits float to around 1.5mm on my xtx winder here in the shop. Using the large washer will cause the adjuster to bottom out sooner when running it in for a belt change, but I was still able to get the belt off no problem. This is 2018....don't go back to days of shims between sheaves! Ha


View attachment 142701

Travis, I did exactly this as you explained last season...It does work well for stock offset.

With the very low offset Im running now, I had to remove same amt off stock float plug, but should still be able to work with the adjuster. The problem is the diff between where helix needs to be for deflection, and where the Hub is, once offset is lowered, was still too much for my liking at this test stage, also the bolt length becomes too long. So for now Im gonna run this like this.

I am still not convinced by any means that this will help belt life....I just want to see if this season can be better or worse with testing new ideas on lowered offset.

Dan

 

[1nc 2000]

Dan, I have my secondary set up with no float from talking with Dave last winter.
I don't have an aftermarket belt adjuster.

I can switch to floating by just moving shims to the inboard side of the no float washer if needed and it won't affect my belt deflection any.
I did this last spring so not much time on it yet. After I get time on it this winter I will report back with my results.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Dan, I have my secondary set up with no float from talking with Dave last winter.
I don't have an aftermarket belt adjuster.

I can switch to floating by just moving shims to the inboard side of the no float washer if needed and it won't affect my belt deflection any.
I did this last spring so not much time on it yet. After I get time on it this winter I will report back with my results.

How do you have it set up for no float whatsoever? Did you bolt down the hub with a smaller washer you mean? And how are you controlling deflection then?

thanks
Dan

 

[1nc 2000]

How do you have it set up for no float whatsoever? Did you bolt down the hub with a smaller washer you mean? And how are you controlling deflection then?

thanks
Dan

I set my offset first with the hurricane offset tool. Cut down the aluminum spacer so it sits flush with clutch hub.

This is my setup for the clutch bolt.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Awesome.....that looks great. Keep me posted on your belt situation this season, will be interesting to see if things get better.

Was yours hard on belts last season? Are you running a big tune too?

thanks
Dan

 

[1nc 2000]

Running hurricane tune bundle.
I snapped belts stock or tuned.
It will be interesting to see how this setup works.

 

[JayM]

Man all this clutch talk is a little scary, ROCKERDAN if you are in Huntsville this winter I might have to come visit as it's a bit above my expertise.

 

[Fast]

Cat front grill - Intercooler

I decided to grab one of these Cat grills. I am not a fan of the look as much as the stock SW grill look, As this will remove that upper shelf where my 50th emblem is. However with this grill it does better in certain snow conditions where the snow will build up on stock grill. Since it was cheap, I felt it would be a good item to have in the shop, ready for a quick bolt on/swap for days when we have lots of fresh snow around. And since this is rare these past few winters, I will run the stock grill most the time.

Dan

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The thought is if you blow a belt under HARD acceleration, the snapped belt allows the primary movable sheave to smack shut into the fixed sheave, and the momentum bangs the entire bearing inward with the stub shaft. I have not looked at others close enough, but mine sure seems to have approx .7mm space that I can see easily.

This amount is far less then amt of offset I needed to gain to get to hurricane bar specs....So its not the main problem by any means, but does contribute to having to take more off the secondary hub when machining.

I still want to see results from this lowered offset before I jump on bandwagon that the offset is indeed the issue.

Dan

Did you talk to yamaha about this because I talked to the yamaha tech at the Toronto show and he said machining the secondary is unheard of the dealer should fix this under warranty you should be able to line your clutches up from factory

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Did you talk to yamaha about this because I talked to the yamaha tech at the Toronto show and he said machining the secondary is unheard of the dealer should fix this under warranty you should be able to line your clutches up from factory

LOL....Yamaha is clueless when it comes to anything on these sleds IMO. Sure you can align them easily using their specs, but if you want to align them to a lower offset, then it must be machined. It remains to be seen if a lower offset spec then YAM says helps belt life, many of us hope so!

Dan

 

[Fast]

LOL....Yamaha is clueless when it comes to anything on these sleds IMO. Sure you can align them easily using their specs, but if you want to align them to a lower offset, then it must be machined. It remains to be seen if a lower offset spec then YAM says helps belt life, many of us hope so!

Dan

I thought there specs were 57.5 to 61mm and I thought you were running it at 60mm

 

[Hammer70]

I thought there specs were 57.5 to 61mm and I thought you were running it at 60mm

My service manual shows spec at 58.1mm-61.1mm
Mine with no shim measured at 60.3mm so I machined my secondary shaft.
Now used Hurricane alignment tool to put in spec. And used selected shim and a custom shim.