Once upon a time, I had a belt blower, then Mike Knapp and Clutchmaster did some magic

[STAIN]

Hey do any of you guys test doing runs ,say 1000 ft checking ET , change components and do it again or is all this BY THE SEAT OF YOUR PANTS?

I do a lot of testing by feel. By belt / clutch temps and clutch face markings. Isn't that a lot of what clutching is about? How do want your sled to drive? Do you drag race?, Mountain ride? Trail ride? A combination of all? A set up dedicated to one of these styles of riding might not be ideal for another. A Mountain rider doesnt need clutching designed for drag racing. There are compromises everywhere. That is why clutching can be so subjective. One person may like or want one thing, someone else may want or FEEL like they want something else.
I know that the ideal way is to have another sled to ride side by side to compare and make changes but i dont have that luxury. Or with timers. I dont have that either.
In my case I only trail ride. I dont care about absolute top speed. I want back shift and corner to corner responsiveness. I want decent belt life. I want throttle response. I try to state this when talking about set ups as not lead others who may want something else in the wrong direction.
I know what I like might not be right for all.

 

[Doowithblue]

Almost like buying a helmet. One loves his the other hates it.

 

[Crossfire12]

I play with clutching I ride trails, no black marks, efficient clutching done by timing, runs, I ride a lot of 20 mph and under trails, so I look at clutches also , I have back shift, never took a stock sled and changed everything at once and came out testing by the seat of the pants feeling. I don’t have money but we have a $20,000 sled , but we don’t have money, luxury ($20,000 sled) luxury to have a timer, $10 watch Walmart, just saying it’s funny to see all the belts breaking from seat of the pants clutching (expensive). Listen to clutchmaster mr Knapp excellent advise.

 

[Doowithblue]

My "seat of the pants" usually translates to faster et on my gps thankfully.

 

[VX1R]

My "seat of the pants" usually translates to faster et on my gps thankfully.

Sounds like your "Butt Dyno" is correctly calibrated!

 

[Beerman]

Hey do any of you guys test doing runs ,say 1000 ft checking ET , change components and do it again or is all this BY THE SEAT OF YOUR PANTS?

I have the CoPiTrail with the high-speed GPS to measure all the distances. Having said that - I haven't had the opportunity yet to test in a meaningful way.

 

[STAIN]

I play with clutching I ride trails, no black marks, efficient clutching done by timing, runs, I ride a lot of 20 mph and under trails, so I look at clutches also , I have back shift, never took a stock sled and changed everything at once and came out testing by the seat of the pants feeling. I don’t have money but we have a $20,000 sled , but we don’t have money, luxury ($20,000 sled) luxury to have a timer, $10 watch Walmart, just saying it’s funny to see all the belts breaking from seat of the pants clutching (expensive). Listen to clutchmaster mr Knapp excellent advise.

Never said I didnt have the money for timers and such. Just dont have them. Test next another sled when I can. Trail ride other sleds with similar set ups. I will often bring parts with me when riding. When others are off taking a smoke or a piss I might change a spring or helix. I also dont have the area or time to sit on a lake all day and run . I used to sit in a field all day and run different set ups when I was younger, before family /work became bigger parts of life. I would rather be on the trail.
If I had all winter off I would defiantly sit in a field or lake and run all day testing but riding time is short enough already.
Thats the beauty of coming here on this site. You can bounce ideas off one another to get a feel for what is working and what isn't. Saves time and you can get some great info from some pretty smart people here.

 

[snowbeast]

Your DTAY-1 are too heavy for your Max Spool 16 tune.

I have same tune as you and use the lighter QA70 with an added 1.9 gram, so about 71.9 ish total. With all else stock except my 35/39 helix. Have changed my primary spring from stock to a Yamaha Blue Brown Blue but weight stayed the same and gave me an extra 100 rpm on top but lower cruising rpms. 8950 is highest I see now.

Stock clutch ramps with added weights work really nice but do take some time to tune. Add weights and then grind to fine tune rpms.
Cheap and effective if you need to move away from your too heavy Dalton’s and do not have extra cash to spend on your money pit. Woody had all needed last week, my buddy bought the weights and 2 size washers there.
Good luck Pete!

Hi Dennis,i can still remove the added 1.4 grams from my dtya,s to get me the same weight you now have (71.9) but we have different helix and springs front and back,why did you go to the Yamaha different spring? Do you have info on its rates,start and finish,my 38 works awesome,i may still try and wind somemore tension on it,and than reinstall the daltons ground down with my cat red primary,and give that a rip. Thanks pete

 

[Fleecer]

Never said I didnt have the money for timers and such. Just dont have them. Test next another sled when I can. Trail ride other sleds with similar set ups. I will often bring parts with me when riding. When others are off taking a smoke or a piss I might change a spring or helix. I also dont have the area or time to sit on a lake all day and run . I used to sit in a field all day and run different set ups when I was younger, before family /work became bigger parts of life. I would rather be on the trail.
If I had all winter off I would defiantly sit in a field or lake and run all day testing but riding time is short enough already.
Thats the beauty of coming here on this site. You can bounce ideas off one another to get a feel for what is working and what isn't. Saves time and you can get some great info from some pretty smart people here.

This describes me to a T.......well said!!!

 

[Doowithblue]

I think it describes many in here that have a busy job, kids, and very little time for much else.

 

[KnappAttack]

I've been doing a fair bit of testing and riding now that we have some snow. I have tried setups provided by others thru PM's and they have tried mine. What works for one guy may not work for another like has been said. Some of us are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum for setups. Light vs. heavy type things.

I've gone back and forth doing some belt testing and even tried going back to my old setups and combos. I'm sure I have the neighbors a bit upset blasting down my road but its ripe for speed because of the hardpack conditions, (disclaimer, just because I'm a dumbass, don't do what I do and don't try this with your neighbors, it is not safe!)

Some things that work for me:

I have found better consistency and believe or of not, I've found better speed using the 8DN over the 8JP on my road, and in the deep snow too. I'm not running flat out like some for miles and maybe thats why, I don't know. Really quite opposite of what others have found. How and why, I believe its because its harder and obviously a different compound and flex's less like I have said before, also because I have geared up for it and clutched accordingly, 8DN also does not drive as deep into OD because its longer. When I try and run a light driven spring setup with the 8JP on the big tunes, I get belt slippage upstairs. I'm better off using the 8DN no matter the secondary setup I use along with more primary weight it seems.

Another thing I just recently found, and quite by accident, is secondary rollers really can change a clutch setup. I recently swapped out a set of updated Yamaha secondary rollers for a set of Hi-Torque rollers on my heavy driven setup and end up having to take out 3.5G out of the Dalton clutch arms! Seriously? Well I knew they were going to change my clutching as the secondary moved so easily in my drill press scale contraption and changed the weight seen going up and down the travel. I never figured I would have to remove that much weight, well guess what? What happens when you make the driven shift that much smoother, quicker and easy? It was like I added a lot of helix and had to take weight out of the primary to compensate.

What happens when you have a good balanced system and now loosen the belt? Yep, super high heat from slippage again, pulled a cord out of the 8DN and was seeing temps of 225-230 on the primary and belt in the deep snow. Now I have to break in a new 8DN and start over, it was telling me it was not happy that I changed the balance of what was working so well, all because I swapped in a different set of rollers, thats what started it for me this last week, I was was honing in on clutching nirvana before the roller swap, man all I did was so simple and changed out a set of secondary clutch roller brands, thats it. It led me on a quest to go back and try other options. Needless to say I've now put the old clutch rollers back in and am working my way back to heavier drive clutch arms and back to the heavy secondary spring setup that was working so well for me prior to my roller fiasco, not that they won't work, but they are not working to my likeing. It was like going from a button clutch to a roller clutch, there was that much change! If someone would have told me a different brand or rollers changed their clutching that much, I'm not sure I would have believed them, I still in disbelief here about it.

I have a fantastic 240R tune that can run on the Dalton Black/Orange in the secondary and it's just a happy combo, but I just can't seem to run that light spring with the 270R and big tunes with success on either 8JP or the 8DN belt, it is better on the 8DN it seems however, maybe just because it is not as affected by heat. The 8JP is inconsistent and changes with heat a lot! 8JP also seems to loose performance for me and fast, I don't like it at all and yet I know others do, I'll take the 8DN, at least for now, along with the a heavier Cat secondary spring, I just can't seem to keep a grip on the belt otherwise. As much as I don't like running heavier secondary springs, it seems like I can't move away from them on the big Hurricane tunes right now.

There are lots of different tunes out there, traction, and different trail conditions being run. They may all need something different it would appear.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Nice info Mike and thanks for your work and feedback....

Things make more sense now, as Ive been running the Hi-Torque rollers since the beginning, as Ive always liked their fiber design. I guess this is why you and I end up with diff results using similar tunes. This type of testing and understanding of our tunes and how they make power and put power down is priceless, great work.

Mike, I dont recall if you tested at all with the Xs825, but if you have I'd like to hear about that and how it fits into your thoughts. I gave up on the 8JP too(last season) and I do have 2 8DNs here and a 22 tooth to mess with. But in the end, the Ultimax for me works well. I now worry more about other deficits in engineering on these sleds, as I contemplate a BIG trip right from my door.....Hard to be confident in this sled after the last tow rope incident.

Dan

 

[Doowithblue]

So the high torque rollers are harder? Or maybe a tad larger? I do know that diff rollers have diff OD.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

So the high torque rollers are harder? Or maybe a tad larger? I do know that diff rollers have diff OD.

I know for me they seem softer as they are a fiber, and mine are now 'worn in' since season one. Sounds like Mike is saying they roll easier since it lost rpms. Maybe they are larger OD by a tad? I always run them, my OSP rollers I tried initially are super hard surface and could actually slide on the ramp(not roll) and why I like the Hi-Torque, since they ride so nice and smoothly on ramp.

I know Im often less grams then Mike, and now realize why....Good to see this came up in Mike's testing, I never would have thought so either.

Dan

 

[Doowithblue]

Always ran cat torlons but nervous running anything made by cat lol.