Relax! Yamaha is not lying Down.

[74Nitro]

Well the one major part that Doo changed supposedly for 4st reliability on the new 850. Pressure fed rod and crank failed on my buddy's 850 two years ago and after 20 years of new XRS Doos he switched to Poo last year. 500mi rear Velocity shock was blown 650 mi the crank or something went on that one. New engine and another month lost waiting for engine before they finally gave him a loaner. Because of this with guy I actually ride with towed and had to ride home in truck with yes I don't trust any new 2st. Doesn't matter why they fail. Not even going to talk about Doo belts and shitty oil use and Nytro range. Go buy a new 850. Not me.

Ya, they're junk. Sure, they compete on fuel mileage and some don't use much oil, but that is why they don't last. Metal on metal spinning thousands of times per minute needs lubrication, but they keep cutting it back.
It's also the reason why the big Suzuki has a better reliability reputation.

 

[pdiddy]

It's also the reason why the big Suzuki has a better reliability reputation.

I suspect Suzuki wasn't about to sign up to lean it down direction Cat was giving them and thus the parting of ways. Just my hunch.

 

[stevewithOCD]

I absolutely believe that a reliable 2 stroke engine could be produced for the masses, not pedaling BS at all.

The grease filled bearings were not reliable due to the fact they had could not be greased externally. The motor had to be completely disassembled in order too perform repacking....stupid or smart?
Maybe they don’t want them to last 20k miles?

If you do the proper forensics on the current failures of these new emissions engines you will find a lot of poor quality parts and assembly are the root cause of the failures IMO.

Engines that fail within the first couple hundred miles are almost exclusively the result of improper clearances or assembly practice. NOT the result of a poorly engineered product.

Burndowns on the Etec motors can usually be traced back to injector issues. Given the fact that many burndown several motors on the same cylinder is pointing to injector issues, read the postings. Connecting rod failures due to improper tolerance on the crank pin, rings with the plating flaking off, crankshfts that snap in half. Why do some have issues and others don’t? Inconsistencies in manufacturing. We are seeing that with our yamacat chassis’s.

Rotax engines never had this many problems until the manufacturing was transferred to Mexico. High precision parts made in China and assembled in Mexico will never be as good as “made in Austria” Rotax of the past, heck they build the only 2 strokes approved for aircraft.

It’s not so much the engineering that’s flawed, it’s the craftsmanship that’s the issue.

It’s not that a reliable emissions 2 stroke couldn’t be made too last, it’s the cost of having it engineered and built in Japan where manufacturing standards are equal to that of Austria.

Anyone who thinks that a reliable 2 stroke would be difficult to build nowadays, especially with all the new coatings ie. ceramic, dlc, teflon, hard anodize to name a few, would be out of the loop and unfamiliar with current engine building practices. Combined with today’s synthetic lubricants that are now available to the general public at relatively low costs........


Yes I do believe yamaha would have no issues building a modern emissions 2 stroke that would last many miles......NO BS

This may be true EXCEPT for the Patriot 850.
It was designed wrong. They weren't feeding oil to one of the center bearings.
They've completely changed it for this year along with all new mapping.

How this went through testing is BEYOND me!
Also, they claimed it would be THE MOST dependable 2-stroke with THE most longevity EVER!
Can you imagine being 1 of the 6 in Rangeley alone that didn't make 300 miles?

 

[ClutchMaster]

This may be true EXCEPT for the Patriot 850.
It was designed wrong. They weren't feeding oil to one of the center bearings.
They've completely changed it for this year along with all new mapping.

How this went through testing is BEYOND me!
Also, they claimed it would be THE MOST dependable 2-stroke with THE most longevity EVER!
Can you imagine being 1 of the 6 in Rangeley alone that didn't make 300 miles?

Wow now that’s a serious shame.
Gotta love marketing hype!

On a side note almost all older 2 strokes didn’t have direct oiling to the bearings and they lasted just fine. Direct oiling is better 4 sure but as long as oil is going into the crankcase somewhere they should be ok.

My bet is if the bearings and races were high quality (non China) and had a dlc coating on them none would have failed....

 

[jjmoneysauce]

I get that engine tech has come a long way, but working on old Enticers and then looking at how a Patriot (those names are so pretentious) motor is put together is a real head scratcher. How Polaris is able to sell so much substandard product is also baffling. But they keep dumping them out! Now, I know that some of their sleds are overall well liked by sledheads, but the reliability piece is something I can’t quite grasp.

 

[ClutchMaster]

As far as how could this possibly happen?

It could be as simple as the test engines were assembled with break in lube on the bearings and production models had less or none.

It takes time for the oil to accumulate in the crankcase and bearings.

Or they could just be Chinese junk?

 

[Snorunner]

I love 2 strokes. I have owned multiple 2 Stroke street bikes. Lightweight and great handling. I even beat a 1979 Chevrolet Z28 Camaro. At a stoplight with my Yamaha RD350. So when I got into sledding I went Cat they had the only Ifs front suspension. Sorry but trailing arms do not belong on a sled. After 10 years of tuning my modified Cat. Till I got it right. Not Cats fault. I had the worlds fastest Cat 550. RZ550. 118 HP. My first trip to the UP. I blew it up climbing the porcupine Mountains. I looked at my wife's Vector and told her I am tired of working on mine I just want to ride. Turn the key and go. So I bought another Vector 2017 hers was a 2016. EPS was the reason I bought hers. She has MS. I now ride the 2016 because the 2017 is more feminine. More Blue. I have no regrets except for the Singleshot rear shock. WTF! I have lost some of my respect for Yamaha. I Also have owned a Yamaha YZ250 1979! Yamaha DT400 1975 and 1978. I know from experience they can do better. My 2cents

 

[Stormbringer]

Yes on the emissions statement.
ALL snowmobiles were supposed to be below a certain emissions level point before certain dates.
There were, AND STILL ISN'T, any 2-strokes that could or can meet the requirements.
Yamaha went all 4-stroke to meet these standards.
Yamaha also didn't realize how Politicians could be bought off in this country.
Hence, they got caught with their pants down when they backed off on emissions.

They are now paying in the lowest sales of the 4, BUT they are still making a PROFIT!
If Yamaha makes $1 profit and keeps a guy in the Yamaha family, they did their job!

Stormbringer...I mean no disrespect to you but where have you been the last 10 years or so? The snowmobile market has been shrinking every year the last decade or so and for those of us that still enjoy this sport are darn fortunate to still have 4 OEM's providing us with awesome sleds to choose from.

Each OEM has faced the challenge in this shrinking market with their own plan. Some have thrived and others not so much. It's still a competitive marketplace but non of the OEM's want any of their competitors to leave. We need all 4 OEM's to survive and from what little I know they'll all be around to offer us new products in the future. I do know that Yamaha is a dedicated 4 season recreational motor company and has plans to stay the course in the snowmobile division for whatever it's worth.

Stormbringer...I mean no disrespect to you but where have you been the last 10 years or so? The snowmobile market has been shrinking every year the last decade or so and for those of us that still enjoy this sport are darn fortunate to still have 4 OEM's providing us with awesome sleds to choose from.

Each OEM has faced the challenge in this shrinking market with their own plan. Some have thrived and others not so much. It's still a competitive marketplace but non of the OEM's want any of their competitors to leave. We need all 4 OEM's to survive and from what little I know they'll all be around to offer us new products in the future. I do know that Yamaha is a dedicated 4 season recreational motor company and has plans to stay the course in the snowmobile division for whatever it's worth.

I think we are saying the same thing. My thought is with the US population growing at 75 million in that time frame. You would think an additional 125,000 units would be sold to keep sales at the 250,000 level if not higher. I know there are many factors that go into the downward trend. But I would love to see it 300,000. A strong market makes better competition with the big four, and better sleds for all of us. Remember keep the shiny side up!

 

[ClutchMaster]

I think we are saying the same thing. My thought is with the US population growing at 75 million in that time frame. You would think an additional 125,000 units would be sold to keep sales at the 250,000 level if not higher. I know there are many factors that go into the downward trend. But I would love to see it 300,000. A strong market makes better competition with the big four, and better sleds for all of us. Remember keep the shiny side up!

Agreed!
But we now have global warming and Millennials that have no money and play snowmobile video games instead. Besides it’s tooo cold for them anyway.

 

[Motorhead]

It is an expensive sport. If you want to use your sled in my area and ride on Good trails, you better have a trailer and a vehicle to pull it with. The same can be said for Side by Sides, but that sport has gone crazy, taking over for what and where a lot of x snowmobilers are going. They accommodate 2 - 4 people per, so families can communicate while enjoying the outdoors in warmer weather. I never got that itch, much prefer snow dust to dirt dust, but to each their own, just getting out and enjoying while leaving the digital world behind for a while, is very good medicine for the mind and spirit.

 

[Deeppow16]

Agreed!
But we now have global warming and Millennials that have no money and play snowmobile video games instead. Besides it’s tooo cold for them anyway.

I'm the exception to this haha! I'm 24 and I want nothing to do with the rest of my generation because they are a bunch of whinny little babies.

 

[Deeppow16]

It is an expensive sport. If you want to use your sled in my area and ride on Good trails, you better have a trailer and a vehicle to pull it with. The same can be said for Side by Sides, but that sport has gone crazy, taking over for what and where a lot of x snowmobilers are going. They accommodate 2 - 4 people per, so families can communicate while enjoying the outdoors in warmer weather. I never got that itch, much prefer snow dust to dirt dust, but to each their own, just getting out and enjoying while leaving the digital world behind for a while, is very good medicine for the mind and spirit.

Yeah there is a lot of added cost beside just the sled itself. I bought 2 atv's so I could go do some riding in the summer but I just don't get the same excitement I do when I ride a sled so it gets old riding them.

 

[yamadoo]

I’m getting some push among buddies to go the SxS route but hey that’s more $ than the Sidewinder I am trying it to buy! LOL

Ooops that was supposed to say “ trying not to buy”. Freudian slip I have to wonder. LOL

 

[InRBigness]

Side by sides are a lot of fun but it depends on the type of roads you ride on. They are best for wide open road style trails. Quads are better for tighter trails and you can work a quad to get it to do what you want. Not possible in a side by side. Both are a lot of fun if used in the right context.

 

[Viper_Dean]

I'm the exception to this haha! I'm 24 and I want nothing to do with the rest of my generation because they are a bunch of whinny little babies.

I'll be 24 in a few months and I have a few friends my age that ride. Just bought a new viper, we are a limited breed. Most would rather go spend money on brunch and instagram photos than go rip sleds on the weekend. Can thank my parents for raising me right.