Relax! Yamaha is not lying Down.

[Motorhead]

I bought 2, sight unseen, to replace my Doo mxz and machz. The handling and traction was certainly not great, but on Salmon River reservoir, 6.5 miles wide open, I smoked my old machz, with zero worries.....it just purred at 10 grand....the other guys were worried....lmao! Been 4 stroke yammy ever since.

Yes that was my first sled where I never worried about engine failure. I towed many 2 strokes back to the truck with that RX1. They just could not run as long and as fast as that one on the BIG trails that we have in northern Maine.
Always amazed at how low 10250 rpm seemed on that motor. It was not working hard at that redline!

I do like the light and nimble 2 strokes, and did go back to 2 strokes for a bit, but after burning down 3 in 3 years, and the one Doo that I owned was 3 times in 2 years, I will stay a 4 stroker from now on!! And to make matters worse for 2 strokes, there is talk of allowing 15% ethanol in our fuel! Thanks governor!!

Now a different problem for me and my Winder. Boosted sleds with mods demand respect and safe practices because of the real speed they possess. Have been waiting all my life for what I now have, which is almost enough dependable power!

 

[Deeppow16]

Bull xxxx. I see absolutely stock 2st sleds go down in the first year of ownership every year. Some quit snowmobiling because of it. Can a 2st be made reliable? Yes but hasn’t been done yet to any that have any power to speak of.

That's not totally true. The 800 zuk motors that cat used were some of the most reliable 800's and bulletproof engines made. They might have had some down falls with other things like wiring but a 4 stroke can have those same problems.

 

[SumpBuster]

Well one good example is when Doo used grease for crankbearings.

I will say that my 2001 Machz triple had the oiler turned up, to try to prevent Doo''s triple cylinder bearing failures. Personally seen it happen. A friend has it, and it still runs strong but smokes like hell...lol! Rebuilt a 600 Doo for my daughter when a piece of the piston just broke off...lots of oil, no wear, little carbon...looked excellent inside. I had a piece of piston skirt break off on my 98mach z....fouled the crank with aluminum. Traded it.
The only 4 stroke engine issue Ive had since 2003 (rx1's, vectors, apexs, sidewinder) was one of my brand new 03 rx1s siezed up. After I hit a log and took out the sump cover, lost the oil. My fault).

 

[whitedust1]

A couple of things:

1. I sort of wonder if the experiences with outboard motor emissions had any bearing on Yamaha's 4 stroke strategy. It's a long and complex subject, but what I gathered is that one of the death knells in the demise of OMC back in the day was their failure to get ahead of emissions standards in a meaningful way. Once OMC had folded, Bombardier approached the engineers that had been working on DI tech at OMC, and it wasn't very long until they finished the job and released the E-Tec motor. This has been, of course, a massive profit driver for BRP in recent years, and I'll gloss over Polaris and Cat's work on 2 stroke, both for brevity and since I don't have a lot of context to add. Yamaha outboards, meanwhile, had been early to get on board with 4-stroke in a meaningful way, and now Yamaha 4 stroke outboards are a dominant worldwide product. Meanwhile over in the sled segment, Yamaha's move towards and then edging back from all-4-stroke products, well, you know how that has all went. A curious saga.

2. I saw an article about Cat doing some PR at Hay Days to the effect of claiming that they are releasing new sleds soon, and admitting that they had not done much PR. Anyone else note this, or did I just miss the thread?

3. Am I wrong to note that Yamaha does an absolutely piss poor job of PR for their sled strategy, and in general for their entire motorsports strategies? And that we rationalize and banter about it ad nauseum, with almost zero actual information right from the source, even at the dealer level, and regional rep levels? So that we're effectively just kind of imagining and pretending what Yamaha's strategies and vision might really be?

Yes I saw the article and sounds like BS to me. AC is now profitable via vastly reducing TRF employees and feet on the street with their AC dealers. You reduce distribution it’s logical you will sell less not more. Lol. As far as new future sleds imo probably something with the alpha track size dumb stuff like that. Then Textron management admits they were abysmal on their snow PR efforts probably being harassed by remaining AC dealers for non support is my best guess. The final insult was no comment about Yamaha and the future relationship between the 2 companies. Weak to say the least about the latest AC press statements at Haydays.

 

[cannondale27]

Stormbringer...I mean no disrespect to you but where have you been the last 10 years or so? The snowmobile market has been shrinking every year the last decade or so and for those of us that still enjoy this sport are darn fortunate to still have 4 OEM's providing us with awesome sleds to choose from.

Each OEM has faced the challenge in this shrinking market with their own plan. Some have thrived and others not so much. It's still a competitive marketplace but non of the OEM's want any of their competitors to leave. We need all 4 OEM's to survive and from what little I know they'll all be around to offer us new products in the future. I do know that Yamaha is a dedicated 4 season recreational motor company and has plans to stay the course in the snowmobile division for whatever it's worth.

That's not totally true. The 800 zuk motors that cat used were some of the most reliable 800's and bulletproof engines made. They might have had some down falls with other things like wiring but a 4 stroke can have those same problems.

true. That’s why I own one but it’s still dirty emission wise. Bad.

 

[Deeppow16]

true. That’s why I own one but it’s still dirty emission wise. Bad.

Yeah its dirty that's for sure. Its the reason I went with it over the 800 ctec thought. I will take an oily machine if its reliable. When I bought, the ctec had only been out a year so I was nervous on the reliability of it.

 

[T-Bone]

I know what you mean, but my wife drives a Lexus. Is it a best seller? Far from it!! Yamaha does not need to be a top seller. I think the Japanese see things a little differently. That being said, sure, it would be nice to see Yamaha #1 in sales.
But like her Lexus, the sidewinder is an awesome sled!
And yes, they could build an awesome 2

I remember when Yamaha’s first 4 stroke main stream sled came out, it was the 03 RX1.

I had one and knew that this was one snowmobile engine that would not burn down. It was sold back then as being fast and dependable. Advertised as 4 lengths faster then an SRX in a certain distance, stock vs stock. I think it was 1/4 mile.
I tested that sucker for many years. There are places and days up north where 2 of us with RX1’s ran wide open, wide open, all day long !! Something you could not do with a 2 stroke, and that is for sure. Ask me how I know that...

People said that Yamaha was doomed back then with their heavy, rough riding, hard handling 4 strokes. They were 1/2 right. We wanted dependable, fast trail sleds, and that we got and still have. So get on your Doos and Poos and eat my dust guys!!!

Guess what? They are still here, 4 stroke and all, even if it is a Yamacat. It more then does the job.

Who knows what the future shall bring with Yamaha sleds, but for now, I’m hanging on tight.

This is the kind of guy that bought the fastest, most powerful stock manufactured snowmobile on earth in 2017.

What’s your sleds claim?[/QUOTE

There are lots of ways to measure a sled. If those attributes you mention are important to you then great. But they are not what is important to the vast majority of sled owners. Somethings that come to mind, cost of sled, weight, handling, cost of insurance, ease of moving it around the shop, is there a dealership network, is the company still making sleds or????, these are just a few. Having the “fastest, most powerful stock manufactured snowmobile on earth in 2017” did not move enough people to buy it in either the arctic cat or Yamaha version.

 

[74Nitro]

"Ease of moving it around the shop".
Never heard that one before when considering why to purchase a particular model. haha

 

[T-Bone]

A couple of things:

1. I sort of wonder if the experiences with outboard motor emissions had any bearing on Yamaha's 4 stroke strategy. It's a long and complex subject, but what I gathered is that one of the death knells in the demise of OMC back in the day was their failure to get ahead of emissions standards in a meaningful way. Once OMC had folded, Bombardier approached the engineers that had been working on DI tech at OMC, and it wasn't very long until they finished the job and released the E-Tec motor. This has been, of course, a massive profit driver for BRP in recent years, and I'll gloss over Polaris and Cat's work on 2 stroke, both for brevity and since I don't have a lot of context to add. Yamaha outboards, meanwhile, had been early to get on board with 4-stroke in a meaningful way, and now Yamaha 4 stroke outboards are a dominant worldwide product. Meanwhile over in the sled segment, Yamaha's move towards and then edging back from all-4-stroke products, well, you know how that has all went. A curious saga.

2. I saw an article about Cat doing some PR at Hay Days to the effect of claiming that they are releasing new sleds soon, and admitting that they had not done much PR. Anyone else note this, or did I just miss the thread?

3. Am I wrong to note that Yamaha does an absolutely piss poor job of PR for their sled strategy, and in general for their entire motorsports strategies? And that we rationalize and banter about it ad nauseum, with almost zero actual information right from the source, even at the dealer level, and regional rep levels? So that we're effectively just kind of imagining and pretending what Yamaha's strategies and vision might really be?

IMHO I don’t think you would like the message Yamaha would deliver if they were open and honest about the future vision of their sled division.

 

[Motorhead]

I will say that my 2001 Machz triple had the oiler turned up, to try to prevent Doo''s triple cylinder bearing failures. Personally seen it happen. A friend has it, and it still runs strong but smokes like hell...lol! Rebuilt a 600 Doo for my daughter when a piece of the piston just broke off...lots of oil, no wear, little carbon...looked excellent inside. I had a piece of piston skirt break off on my 98mach z....fouled the crank with aluminum. Traded it.
The only 4 stroke engine issue Ive had since 2003 (rx1's, vectors, apexs, sidewinder) was one of my brand new 03 rx1s siezed up. After I hit a log and took out the sump cover, lost the oil. My fault).

Thus the TY name of SumpBuster I am guessing ? Ouch...

 

[Motorhead]

IMHO I don’t think you would like the message Yamaha would deliver if they were open and honest about the future vision of their sled division.

I myself, would take it in stride and just be thankful for the many great moments that were created thanks to this sport.

All of the manufacturers have enabled these sleds to just keep pushing this sport, be it trail, mountain or other. Watching the manufacturers innovation has kept my interest stirring, to say the least!

So when and if it happens, I shall always be thankful for the many, many different models with their new ideas, innovation and engineering that brought me to where I am today in this sport.

Really hope they all stick around for the next generation that catches this (Snowmobile Addiction).

 

[T-Bone]

"Ease of moving it around the shop".
Never heard that one before when considering why to purchase a particular model. haha

That has more importance to me than having the fastest most powerful sled on earth. I’m not 21 anymore and the back is not as strong as it one was.

 

[SumpBuster]

Thus the TY name of SumpBuster I am guessing ? Ouch...

You got it! There were little tabs cast onto the sump cover that were dangerously close to the access panel and aluminum underbelly. It just grazed enough to break one of those tabs. I hadn't gotten the skid Plat yet, but then mounted a 3/32 thick steel plate under the skid plate. Never hit anything again under there. Figures.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Bull xxxx. I see absolutely stock 2st sleds go down in the first year of ownership every year. Some quit snowmobiling because of it. Can a 2st be made reliable? Yes but hasn’t been done yet to any that have any power to speak of.

I absolutely believe that a reliable 2 stroke engine could be produced for the masses, not pedaling BS at all.

The grease filled bearings were not reliable due to the fact they had could not be greased externally. The motor had to be completely disassembled in order too perform repacking....stupid or smart?
Maybe they don’t want them to last 20k miles?

If you do the proper forensics on the current failures of these new emissions engines you will find a lot of poor quality parts and assembly are the root cause of the failures IMO.

Engines that fail within the first couple hundred miles are almost exclusively the result of improper clearances or assembly practice. NOT the result of a poorly engineered product.

Burndowns on the Etec motors can usually be traced back to injector issues. Given the fact that many burndown several motors on the same cylinder is pointing to injector issues, read the postings. Connecting rod failures due to improper tolerance on the crank pin, rings with the plating flaking off, crankshfts that snap in half. Why do some have issues and others don’t? Inconsistencies in manufacturing. We are seeing that with our yamacat chassis’s.

Rotax engines never had this many problems until the manufacturing was transferred to Mexico. High precision parts made in China and assembled in Mexico will never be as good as “made in Austria” Rotax of the past, heck they build the only 2 strokes approved for aircraft.

It’s not so much the engineering that’s flawed, it’s the craftsmanship that’s the issue.

It’s not that a reliable emissions 2 stroke couldn’t be made too last, it’s the cost of having it engineered and built in Japan where manufacturing standards are equal to that of Austria.

Anyone who thinks that a reliable 2 stroke would be difficult to build nowadays, especially with all the new coatings ie. ceramic, dlc, teflon, hard anodize to name a few, would be out of the loop and unfamiliar with current engine building practices. Combined with today’s synthetic lubricants that are now available to the general public at relatively low costs........

Yes I do believe yamaha would have no issues building a modern emissions 2 stroke that would last many miles......NO BS

 

[cannondale27]

I absolutely believe that a reliable 2 stroke engine could be produced for the masses, not pedaling BS at all.

The grease filled bearings were not reliable due to the fact they had could not be greased externally. The motor had to be completely disassembled in order too perform repacking....stupid or smart?
Maybe they don’t want them to last 20k miles?

If you do the proper forensics on the current failures of these new emissions engines you will find a lot of poor quality parts and assembly are the root cause of the failures IMO.

Engines that fail within the first couple hundred miles are almost exclusively the result of improper clearances or assembly practice. NOT the result of a poorly engineered product.

Burndowns on the Etec motors can usually be traced back to injector issues. Given the fact that many burndown several motors on the same cylinder is pointing to injector issues, read the postings. Connecting rod failures due to improper tolerance on the crank pin, rings with the plating flaking off, crankshfts that snap in half. Why do some have issues and others don’t? Inconsistencies in manufacturing. We are seeing that with our yamacat chassis’s.

Rotax engines never had this many problems until the manufacturing was transferred to Mexico. High precision parts made in China and assembled in Mexico will never be as good as “made in Austria” Rotax of the past, heck they build the only 2 strokes approved for aircraft.

It’s not so much the engineering that’s flawed, it’s the craftsmanship that’s the issue.

It’s not that a reliable emissions 2 stroke couldn’t be made too last, it’s the cost of having it engineered and built in Japan where manufacturing standards are equal to that of Austria.

Anyone who thinks that a reliable 2 stroke would be difficult to build nowadays, especially with all the new coatings ie. ceramic, dlc, teflon, hard anodize to name a few, would be out of the loop and unfamiliar with current engine building practices. Combined with today’s synthetic lubricants that are now available to the general public at relatively low costs........

Yes I do believe yamaha would have no issues building a modern emissions 2 stroke that would last many miles......NO BS

Well the one major part that Doo changed supposedly for 4st reliability on the new 850. Pressure fed rod and crank failed on my buddy's 850 two years ago and after 20 years of new XRS Doos he switched to Poo last year. 500mi rear Velocity shock was blown 650 mi the crank or something went on that one. New engine and another month lost waiting for engine before they finally gave him a loaner. Because of this with guy I actually ride with towed and had to ride home in truck with yes I don't trust any new 2st. Doesn't matter why they fail. Not even going to talk about Doo belts and shitty oil use and Nytro range. Go buy a new 850. Not me.