Will the Sidewinder ever have competition?

[Mototown]

The 900 have a little tiny turbo and a single trottle body,the Yamaha 998 have bigger turbo and 3 intake on the trottle body and run at 8900 rpm. If they mount a bigger turbo on the Skidoo and a bigger fuel pump and injectors then you will see bigger hp numbers on that Skidoo

If you put a bigger turbo on the skidoo & it creates 20 psig u get what ??? Maybe 220-230 hp ? If u keep the stock turbo & boost to 20 psig on the sidewinder what do u get 310-330 hp ??? It's pretty clear skidoo is missing something in the valve timing or the head doesn't flow as good as Yamaha head ... making high quality valve train parts that can handle high rpm,high lift, is very specialized to motor manufacturers . Something Yamaha is very good at.

 

[stevewithOCD]

If you put a bigger turbo on the skidoo & it creates 20 psig u get what ??? Maybe 220-230 hp ? If u keep the stock turbo & boost to 20 psig on the sidewinder what do u get 310-330 hp ??? It's pretty clear skidoo is missing something in the valve timing or the head doesn't flow as good as Yamaha head ... making high quality valve train parts that can handle high rpm,high lift, is very specialized to motor manufacturers . Something Yamaha is very good at.

Let's back up a bit here.
This ACE motor was NOT designed to compete with the Sidewinder so there is no need to try to compare what IFs.
Rotax is an EXCELLENT engine builder.
Ski Doo has incredible market savvy. Actually Yamaha should be embarrassed!
They knew people were clamoring for a 150 HPish 4-stroke that could be safely tuned up a bit. They already had a good ACE motor, so instead of designing a whole new motor, they smartly boosted this motor which we ALL knew they were going to do anyways.
It is cost effective, fits in the chassis & unlike the 1200, it's THEIRS.
The 1200 would be a GREAT boosted sled, but it's over 1000cc's which is taboo today & it wasn't owned by DOO. I was hoping they would put 3 injectors on the 1200 & Supercharge it, but i think they made the SMART choice.

When this ONE sled outsells ALL of the Yamaha's combined, do you think the people at DOO are going to give a rat's #*$&@ that at 20 psi they put out less HP?

BTW: I firmly believe Honda & Yamaha are THE BEST small 4-stroke engine builders on this planet. Rotax is right there & if/when DOO tells them to build the WINDER SLAYER, it may be lights out. Although i don't think they need to.
Don't forget what those German's are capable of doing when they get told they are #2!

 

[staggs65]

It’s funny how the Doo transplants keep bringing up that the 900t wasn’t meant to compete with the Sidewinder but keep talking about how great it is in a thread about Sidewinder competition. You can’t have it both ways.

 

[cannondale27]

It’s funny how the Doo transplants keep bringing up that the 900t wasn’t meant to compete with the Sidewinder but keep talking about how great it is in a thread about Sidewinder competition. You can’t have it both ways.

Right. Dont ever forget the abilities of Yamaha either. Maybe they will shock the world and build the Ultimate chassis and suspension. They could. Just running on hope at this point though.

 

[SumpBuster]

It's subjective. I've (we've)gone way too fast on way too bumpy trails passing way too many rider forward 'best ever' sleds on my 'heavy, groomed trail only' Apex having a blast and riding 200 + mile saturdays on Tug Hill, not known for smooth trails..lol.
But the sw engine is perfect for our trails and riding, as the engine is so smooth and predictable, it's good for another 10 mph...at 63 yrs....lmao! BUT we won't necessarily go out of our way to harass lesser sleds....unless provoked!

 

[cannondale27]

It's subjective. I've (we've)gone way too fast on way too bumpy trails passing way too many rider forward 'best ever' sleds on my 'heavy, groomed trail only' Apex having a blast and riding 200 + mile saturdays on Tug Hill, not known for smooth trails..lol.
But the sw engine is perfect for our trails and riding, as the engine is so smooth and predictable, it's good for another 10 mph...at 63 yrs....lmao! BUT we won't necessarily go out of our way to harass lesser sleds....unless provoked!

I see the same thing but in reality its just rider ability and confidence that puts you in that situation of a perceived advantage. Its not often but there is no doubt someone out there can put anyone to school. Its just its really rare to run into them. I think I am fast and go seasons without ever being passed but once in awhile there will be one that will put me to shame and not with power but with ability. You know the kind of guy that could pull out a old SRX or 500 Vmax with no suspension and take it wide open through tight 4ft moguls and do it all day long comfortably and safely. They are out there. Just stay safe!

 

[Beerman]

Let's back up a bit here.
This ACE motor was NOT designed to compete with the Sidewinder so there is no need to try to compare what IFs.
Rotax is an EXCELLENT engine builder.
Ski Doo has incredible market savvy. Actually Yamaha should be embarrassed!
They knew people were clamoring for a 150 HPish 4-stroke that could be safely tuned up a bit. They already had a good ACE motor, so instead of designing a whole new motor, they smartly boosted this motor which we ALL knew they were going to do anyways.
It is cost effective, fits in the chassis & unlike the 1200, it's THEIRS.
The 1200 would be a GREAT boosted sled, but it's over 1000cc's which is taboo today & it wasn't owned by DOO. I was hoping they would put 3 injectors on the 1200 & Supercharge it, but i think they made the SMART choice.

When this ONE sled outsells ALL of the Yamaha's combined, do you think the people at DOO are going to give a rat's #*$&@ that at 20 psi they put out less HP?

BTW: I firmly believe Honda & Yamaha are THE BEST small 4-stroke engine builders on this planet. Rotax is right there & if/when DOO tells them to build the WINDER SLAYER, it may be lights out. Although i don't think they need to.
Don't forget what those German's are capable of doing when they get told they are #2!

Well said master.

It's an entertaining thread if nothing else. Steve's points above hit the mark IMHO - but what the hell do I know. None of us are in product management at Yamaha or Rotax, but I suspect Steve's point #3 is the most accurate one in this entire thread. BRP is a public company, they primarily care about their profits (and growth to some degree) since that's almost the only thing all their shareholders care about.

Having said that, I for one am ETERNALLY GRATEFUL Yamaha did what few will even consider and somewhere in a boardroom said "ok, let's do it, build the fastest, most powerful production snowmobile the world has ever seen." Kind of akin to the guys at FCA/Dodge, while everyone is looking for better mileage and publicly announcing the end of internal combustion development in favor of electric, Mopar said "what the industry really needs is a bigger Hemi that makes 1000 hp." God bless America.

 

[cannondale27]

Well said master.

It's an entertaining thread if nothing else. Steve's points above hit the mark IMHO - but what the hell do I know. None of us are in product management at Yamaha or Rotax, but I suspect Steve's point #3 is the most accurate one in this entire thread. BRP is a public company, they primarily care about their profits (and growth to some degree) since that's almost the only thing all their shareholders care about.

Having said that, I for one am ETERNALLY GRATEFUL Yamaha did what few will even consider and somewhere in a boardroom said "ok, let's do it, build the fastest, most powerful production snowmobile the world has ever seen." Kind of akin to the guys at FCA/Dodge, while everyone is looking for better mileage and publicly announcing the end of internal combustion development in favor of electric, Mopar said "what the industry really needs is a bigger Hemi that makes 1000 hp." God bless America.

Right On! USA,USA!

 

[XP123]

Let's back up a bit here.
This ACE motor was NOT designed to compete with the Sidewinder so there is no need to try to compare what IFs.
Rotax is an EXCELLENT engine builder.
Ski Doo has incredible market savvy. Actually Yamaha should be embarrassed!
They knew people were clamoring for a 150 HPish 4-stroke that could be safely tuned up a bit. They already had a good ACE motor, so instead of designing a whole new motor, they smartly boosted this motor which we ALL knew they were going to do anyways.
It is cost effective, fits in the chassis & unlike the 1200, it's THEIRS.
The 1200 would be a GREAT boosted sled, but it's over 1000cc's which is taboo today & it wasn't owned by DOO. I was hoping they would put 3 injectors on the 1200 & Supercharge it, but i think they made the SMART choice.

When this ONE sled outsells ALL of the Yamaha's combined, do you think the people at DOO are going to give a rat's #*$&@ that at 20 psi they put out less HP?

BTW: I firmly believe Honda & Yamaha are THE BEST small 4-stroke engine builders on this planet. Rotax is right there & if/when DOO tells them to build the WINDER SLAYER, it may be lights out. Although i don't think they need to.
Don't forget what those German's are capable of doing when they get told they are #2!

Good post Steve and I agree. Now to be honest and to answer the original question NO the Sidewinder will not have competition now or in the future. Cat is the only competition but in reality they are the same sled.

Doo and Polaris have shown they are not interested in joining the hyper sled market and I don't think this will ever change.

I also feel the 900T has no competition right now either. Almost all the dyno charts are showing a stock 900T to be right around 165 hp. (hurricanes shows 167.5) This puts it smack in the middle of the 2 stroke 850 class and I think this is the sweet spot for production trail sleds. What sets the 900t apart from them is it's a 4 stroke and as we all know there are many advantages with a 4 stroke and the largest is their reliability and ease of tuning.

I think we can all agree that both the 900T and the Sidewinder are in a class by themselves with no real competition.

Or maybe not.

 

[DTR 82-27]

I agree with Steve’s post as well. This is great conversation but we are looking for a competing sled that doesn’t exist.
The hyper sled market is small. We need to remember the people on this forum are a relatively small group of fanatics. I know most of us are happy the Sidewinder exists and hope a sled like it is always around for us.
But, there is a few reasons why BRP has almost half the market and Polaris is right behind them. The Viper/7000 is getting a little old now. Yamaha/AC should come out with a sled that appeals to the masses. Maybe a 2 cylinder 4 stroke turbo right in the 160 hp range. Make it a light handling trail sled, super dependable (Yamaha should be do this alone, lol) and good on fuel. Most people do not really care about going 125 mph across a lake all day long. I bet they would sell a pile of them.
I remember buying a brand new SS440 in the fall of 1982 and wondering why anyone would even consider one of those Blizzard steel tanks. They had power but that was it. The SS was super light with good power, half a pull to start it. No one could touch them in the trails.Times sure have changed.

 

[cannondale27]

And dont forget all it takes is one problem that more than one internet jockey has and any sled can get a Black Eye forever. Viper run quality,Winders Belt issues,900T remains to be seen. Have not seen a perfect sled yet.

 

[Mototown]

I guess my main point, is that I keep reading here and magizines ( superTX) that Rotax is on par or better than Yamaha ( Honda is on par) . When have they built a 4stroke motor in a sled that's even been better than the first Apex Yamaha made back in 06 . ( I would have no problem running my Apex against the ace ) . They needed 1170 cc ( e-tec1200) to be a good enough air pump to get even with the nitro 1049cc , but didn't come close to the Apex.Now they have the ace 900cc that is clearly not on the same hp to cc ratio as the sidewinder. No sorry they are not on the same level as Yamaha....

 

[cannondale27]

I guess my main point, is that I keep reading here and there that Rotax is on par or better than Yamaha ( Honda is on par) . When have they built a 4stroke motor in a sled that's even been better than the first Apex Yamaha made back in 06 . ( I would have no problem running my Apex against the ace ) . They needed 1170 cc ( e-tec1200) to be a good enough air pump to get even with the nitro 1049cc , but didn't come close to the Apex.Now they have the ace 900cc that is clearly not on the same hp to cc ratio as the sidewinder. No sorry they are not on the same level as Yamaha....

Very true. I get it.

 

[XP123]

I agree with Steve’s post as well. This is great conversation but we are looking for a competing sled that doesn’t exist.
The hyper sled market is small. We need to remember the people on this forum are a relatively small group of fanatics. I know most of us are happy the Sidewinder exists and hope a sled like it is always around for us.
But, there is a few reasons why BRP has almost half the market and Polaris is right behind them. The Viper/7000 is getting a little old now. Yamaha/AC should come out with a sled that appeals to the masses. Maybe a 2 cylinder 4 stroke turbo right in the 160 hp range. Make it a light handling trail sled, super dependable (Yamaha should be do this alone, lol) and good on fuel. Most people do not really care about going 125 mph across a lake all day long. I bet they would sell a pile of them.
I remember buying a brand new SS440 in the fall of 1982 and wondering why anyone would even consider one of those Blizzard steel tanks. They had power but that was it. The SS was super light with good power, half a pull to start it. No one could touch them in the trails.Times sure have changed.

How do you think Yamaha was number 1 in sales years ago? They built very dependable sleds with industry leading technology that appealed to the majority of riders. Look at the original Phazer. That sled was not a high performance sled but the dealers sold them like bottled water in the desert. They appeald to everybody and you could buy them for every and any member of your Family.

I think if Yamaha wants to stay in the snowmobile market they should build a sled like you described and a direct answer to the 900T market. I would bet it would outsell the Winder 5 to 1. Yamaha can do it no problem but will the bean counters let them?

 

[Mototown]

How do you think Yamaha was number 1 in sales years ago? They built very dependable sleds with industry leading technology that appealed to the majority of riders. Look at the original Phazer. That sled was not a high performance sled but the dealers sold them like bottled water in the desert. They appeald to everybody and you could buy them for every and any member of your Family.

I think if Yamaha wants to stay in the snowmobile market they should build a sled like you described and a direct answer to the 900T market. I would bet it would outsell the Winder 5 to 1. Yamaha can do it no problem but will the bean counters let them?

The tell tail sign will be in February when they release the 3 all new sleds ...