Will the Sidewinder ever have competition?

[XP123]

The tell tail sign will be in February when they release the 3 all new sleds ...

I would love to see Yamaha get serious again. I think that will be great for everyone. It will be a very sad day if we lose any of the 4 manufacturers that are left and I hope it doesn't happen.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

I guess my main point, is that I keep reading here and magizines ( superTX) that Rotax is on par or better than Yamaha ( Honda is on par) . When have they built a 4stroke motor in a sled that's even been better than the first Apex Yamaha made back in 06 . ( I would have no problem running my Apex against the ace ) . They needed 1170 cc ( e-tec1200) to be a good enough air pump to get even with the nitro 1049cc , but didn't come close to the Apex.Now they have the ace 900cc that is clearly not on the same hp to cc ratio as the sidewinder. No sorry they are not on the same level as Yamaha....

I agree.....I have always thought the YAM 4s sled engines were alot more performance oriented then the ROTAX 4s ever were. I know guys always talk about the 1200 4tec. But I never felt it to feel truly perf oriented, The well documented throttle delay which many hated had to be overcome with iTC in '16. Due to a much too long intake tract, and a single throttle body design. And now the iTC is the standard for the rotax 4s engines, and while it can have some benefits for trail riders, most perf riders appreciate the standard throttle cable and instant throttle response that all YAM 4s engines have. It's hard to ignore 3 throttle bodies and real cables, or the APEX with its 4 TB setup. I just don't see how the rotax 4s compares in performance feel. Sure the 1200 can handle big turbo power, but stock it was nothing special, albeit a nice reliable 4s.

Cat/Yam just need to refine some things, and re-engineer a few simple things like many of us have done, and YAM needs to address the primary clutch/harmonics thing, so they last longer. They know 99% of all winders get boosted and they should make it more beefy, or just fix it with a stub shaft dampener like Hurricane did. I think 2020 will hopefully be a year Cat/YAM bring some real updates.

A 1" track and lesser quality shocks with a higher price tag is not what most want. Most LE owners dont want to step down in shocks quality and pay more. If 2020 does not bring some improvements to the 998 world, I could see alot of the 17 owners considering another 4s turbo. While a ton of us are addicted to the massive 270+ power now, there are many guys who are happy with 160-190ish hp at a lighter weight.

I think this March will be interesting to see where things are heading with Yam and Cat and also BRP....When i see the 900t has a solid Jshaft now, it does beg the question, when is the Mach Z coming back?(Not ,will it come back)

Dan

 

[SumpBuster]

I see the same thing but in reality its just rider ability and confidence that puts you in that situation of a perceived advantage. Its not often but there is no doubt someone out there can put anyone to school. Its just its really rare to run into them. I think I am fast and go seasons without ever being passed but once in awhile there will be one that will put me to shame and not with power but with ability. You know the kind of guy that could pull out a old SRX or 500 Vmax with no suspension and take it wide open through tight 4ft moguls and do it all day long comfortably and safely. They are out there. Just stay safe!

Absolutely true!
I got passed on a road with big dips, on my machz, by a Formula S 380!!! I flew so high off one roller trying to catch him, when I landed the hood and windshield compressed, then it rebounded and blew all the tabs off and the windshield went flying, and the f111 behind me ran it over ..he was laughing so hard!! So yeah, a lot is how you feel on that sled, on that day...but this guy was really good!! Just pin it and hang on!
Then the day the x riders (full armor, numbers, etc) were out testing some new mxzx''s and 2 got by over some real rough stuff...so we let er rip.....lock and load....10 more miles, the other 5 couldn't get by and I almost caught 2nd place....in Boonville, the leader came back laughing and gave me a big thumbs up...me, on another machz, not known for bump ability...lol....what a blast! What memories! What a workout! And safety first...wide fields, trails, and never even a beer...but rough. Those days on those heavy machz''s got me ready for the future...Yamaha 4 strokes!!

 

[Doowithblue]

I see the same thing but in reality its just rider ability and confidence that puts you in that situation of a perceived advantage. Its not often but there is no doubt someone out there can put anyone to school. Its just its really rare to run into them. I think I am fast and go seasons without ever being passed but once in awhile there will be one that will put me to shame and not with power but with ability. You know the kind of guy that could pull out a old SRX or 500 Vmax with no suspension and take it wide open through tight 4ft moguls and do it all day long comfortably and safely. They are out there. Just stay safe!

No truer words spoken! I witnessed it years ago up in cochrane. Some guy on a zr800 schooled me on a 700 mxzx. Although i was on the precision skis in warm weather so mine was a handful at best. But i got passed and he was gone.

 

[SumpBuster]

Well said master.

It's an entertaining thread if nothing else. Steve's points above hit the mark IMHO - but what the hell do I know. None of us are in product management at Yamaha or Rotax, but I suspect Steve's point #3 is the most accurate one in this entire thread. BRP is a public company, they primarily care about their profits (and growth to some degree) since that's almost the only thing all their shareholders care about.

Having said that, I for one am ETERNALLY GRATEFUL Yamaha did what few will even consider and somewhere in a boardroom said "ok, let's do it, build the fastest, most powerful production snowmobile the world has ever seen." Kind of akin to the guys at FCA/Dodge, while everyone is looking for better mileage and publicly announcing the end of internal combustion development in favor of electric, Mopar said "what the industry really needs is a bigger Hemi that makes 1000 hp." God bless America.

The Viper v10 too...the answer to a question nobody asked!! LOL! Gotta love it!

 

[SumpBuster]

No truer words spoken! I witnessed it years ago up in cochrane. Some guy on a zr800 schooled me on a 700 mxzx. Although i was on the precision skis in warm weather so mine was a handful at best. But i got passed and he was gone.

I hated those precision skis! Under certain conditions, the bordering pine trees did more to help steer than they did!!

 

[JPS]

Yamaha does build very good stuff sometimes they over build things and it takes them years to make changes . With that kind of mind set can hurt a company IMO. While the rest of the world has moved on their still turning out what worked. Yamaha has brought a lot of tech to the industry CVT clutching , oil injection, four stroke tech and so on. Yes the phazer was a huge hit with power to weight, pogo stick front end, wedge type chassis, light that moved with the bars definitely way ahead of its time. They probably out sold all three competitors combined! They got caught with their pants down though. While they were sleeping the industry changed and it wasn't long before they weren't # 1. The mtn max and srx were good sleds but weren't great. While all the other companies moved away from the standard chassis Yamaha goes and throws a street bike motor in a sled, was it innovative yes but it wasn't a game changer. Big motor in a dated chassis that ran for 14 yrs. The greatest thing they have done in the last decade was partner with artic cat . Finally gave the consumer a modern sled the turbo motor is just icing on the cake. IMO it doesn't have the wow factor but maybe I was expecting to much from it. If it wasn't for the dyno you would have a hard time convincing me it's 200+ HP! If the skidoo ace isn't a racing competitor to the winder now ,with a little factory tweaking and a awesome 4th gen chassis it won't be long. Maybe you will see a couple station wagons going head to head on the wide open plains

The guy's riding 850 Doo's are well aware of the HP under the hood of the Sidewinders, they usually disappear quick when a Sidewinder pulls onto the lake. 998 turbo riders dont really have to say anything about there Yamaha, this is a group that knows everything about there sled and accepts it for what it is, just smile and enjoy the ride!!!

 

[SumpBuster]

The guy's riding 850 Doo's are well aware of the HP under the hood of the Sidewinders, they usually disappear quick when a Sidewinder pulls onto the lake. 998 turbo riders dont really have to say anything about there Yamaha, this is a group that knows everything about there sled and accepts it for what it is, just smile and enjoy the ride!!!

Last winter I had many thumbs up from doo riders as soon as they see turbo...interesting.

 

[fourload]

Tuned doo vs Stock Sidewinder. Identical and about same hp. Thanks for the video Dave.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=384417215630664

 

[stone88]

Tuned doo vs Stock Sidewinder. Identical and about same hp. Thanks for the video Dave.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=384417215630664

Well I’ve never seen a stock sidewinder that slow ever so something wrong there mine ran 120 out of the box as well as every srx this year.

 

[fourload]

Same hp and the doo is lighter. Add a small tune to the Winder and bye bye.

 

[Beerman]

Same hp and the doo is lighter. Add a small tune to the Winder and bye bye.

Exactly! I suspect there will be a higher % of tuned SWs vs tuned Doos. I think the SW is kinda like the 5.0 Mustangs of the 90's-00's - good luck finding one that isn't modded!

 

[Shagnos]

Tuned doo vs Stock Sidewinder. Identical and about same hp. Thanks for the video Dave.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=384417215630664

What was it at 1000 ft? Never raced anyone 1600ft...ever.

 

[fourload]

Exactly! I suspect there will be a higher % of tuned SWs vs tuned Doos. I think the SW is kinda like the 5.0 Mustangs of the 90's-00's - good luck finding one that isn't modded!

Lots of doo boys around here going to get tunes on their new sleds. My sled will be totally stealth with the hurricane SM tunes. Can’t wait to load the 270 tune and make their heads spin. High windshield saddle bags and all. We do lots of roll on 2000ft lake runs around here. I will say,” Something must be wrong with your sled. I only have a clutch kit on mine” Lol

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Not sure what is in this for gears(cant be stock) and what else is in this as it seems to be putting up some decent numbers.

More then likely has a 1" track I would think. Stock SRX territory OUT OF THE BOX.