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Yamaha Cutting Production for 2019

Wannaviper said:
I think I get what Cannondale is saying. I haven't bought a Sidewinder, primarily because it is a turbo. Don't get me wrong, I have a turbo diesel in my 2010 Truck, and my wife has a 5 cyl turbo in her Volvo; both have been good engines so far, but I still don't totally trust them. If Yamaha would design and build a 170-180 hp NA engine that wasn't appreciably heavier than my Viper engine, and had the same durability, I would be lining up at the dealership to get one. Not being an engineer, I don't even know if such an engine is possible, but now that they have the turbo, Yamaha won't even have to try to design or build a replacement for the Apex.
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I feel the same as you. I have an Ecoboost F150 with the twin turbos and I love the truck and the power the turbos push out but I always have the thought in the back of my mind about one of them going out or the turbo causing something else to break. I like the winder engine but Yamaha has left a huge window out. We have 135HP sleds and now 200HP sleds. That's large gap for them to leave open. I'm an engineer and I would say that would be one hell of a feat to create what you just said. Now I'm not saying its not possible as I believe everything is possible. Every year we come up with new methods for making things, also the advances of materials and how we put things together. Maybe in the future but right now it would be tough but I like your thinking.
 


We are looking at this kind of wrong. They developed the turbo for the mountain market and it turned out so well that they carried it over the whole line of sleds. They needed a motor to produce enough power to counter act the weight in a four stroke sled. It does this very well . If the motor is built very well and it has the right turbo on in place it will last a long time . But in Cannondale's defense it does make it more complicated. If they can make a 500 cc Twin Phazer motor produce 85 hp they can make a 3 cly NA motor produce 170 hp . I'm thinking we will see one close to that 160/170 hp next year .
 
DGZRT said:

We are looking at this kind of wrong. They developed the turbo for the mountain market and it turned out so well that they carried it over the whole line of sleds. They needed a motor to produce enough power to counter act the weight in a four stroke sled. It does this very well . If the motor is built very well and it has the right turbo on in place it will last a long time . But in Cannondale's defense it does make it more complicated. If they can make a 500 cc Twin Phazer motor produce 85 hp they can make a 3 cly NA motor produce 170 hp . I'm thinking we will see one close to that 160/170 hp next year .
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That makes sense. If I had mountains And huge elevation change I would definitely have a Turbo.
 
I wish we were able to see the data on Turbo failures as we know they function great and many have 'gut feelings of expensive risk' would love to 'know' the real risk something like failure rate/ engine NA versus Turbo in sleds. You know Yamaha knows.
My Turbo diesel 283 thousand over 11 years and now 3.5 eco boost twin turbo at 146 thousand has greatly calmed my worries. Turbo diesels have been around for years with VERY high miles and hours and that's why I call it proven technology- not that there is decades of experience in sleds.
It is the $ sign and love of the Genesis 4 that kept me away from the winder not the gut feel.
I understand the NA draw, its like Muscle cars(displacement) versus turbo imports at its root.
 
cannondale27 said:
So do you think Yamaha is a Motor Company or a Turbo Motor Company? I know what I think. Yamaha cheated. Easy cheap way to satisfy the masses. Get it?
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I think they are a Motor company now! Did they cheat? I dont think a turbo is easy or cheap so I guess I dont agree with that but dropping the apex engine is a slap in the face to thoses who love it. It revolutionized the sled industry!
 
Sasquatch said:
I think they are a Motor company now! Did they cheat? I dont think a turbo is easy or cheap so I guess I dont agree with that but dropping the apex engine is a slap in the face to thoses who love it. It revolutionized the sled industry!
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No one. Even Yamaha can make a Apex motor cheaply. That is why it’s gone. Don’t you get it? They are cutting costs and as long as people buy the result they will continue. Thing is That is not how past Yamaha’s were made. In fact opposite even to extreme. Shame.
 
Getting super high hp through the use of a turbo is certainly one way to do it, and it does give one the benefit of an improved power-to-weight ratio. And don't get me wrong - I love my turbo! But power-to-weight ratio is only a benefit when you are using the power. If you are off the gas, then all you have is the left over weight.

When I think of Yamaha's next direction, I think of it more than just a specific product, engine, or gap in the product line. I'm a Yamaha fan and want to see Yamaha truly succeed. I WANT them to take huge portions of market share! I WANT them to be in the limelight! I WANT others to accuse the magazines of continually pushing Yamaha product because of being paid (as we all claim happens with Ski Doo). I WANT them to get back into racing - and not just through factory backing. Independent race teams running Yamaha because they win would be awesome. I WANT a 160+hp sled that weight less than 600lbs full of gas. I WANT it to cost less. I WANT all of these things to happen with Yamaha. Unfortunately, what I want is going to take a lot more than just a change of a model or two. Until all of this happens, I will continue to be a fan and take what I can get ... then mod to make it what it should be.

The other struggle with this is my wants are likely very much different than others. So Yamaha can't make money offering a product to a niche market like me. They have to try and sell to the masses. Yamaha is no doubt a huge corporation ... but at the end of the day, they are no different than any other for-profit company. They will only invest money into the parts of the company that make money. And that investment will only be based on how much profit can be made. In relation to all of Yamaha, snowmobiling is a small market with not much money to be made.
 
I agree Turtle that's what I want too. But Yamaha always did stand out by making thier sleds cutting edge and very well built. Especially engines. Even could see it in the budget sleds like Phazers,Enticers and Bravo. The 4st engines is now their key. If Doo feels like putting a Turbo on thier engine what does Sidewinder have then? Doo does not make a engine like the Apex. High rpm with gear reduction for clutch efficiency. That is the Niche that only Yamaha has or had. The 3 cylinder in its current state is something any manufacturer can make well. Now put gear reduction and internals that can handle 11-12,000 rpm for 20,000 mi on the 3 and you have a motor no one else can make. Add a turbo to that if you would like!
 
The crossplane engine is a beast, but we all know 4 cylinder sled motors are most likely dying with the Apex.
That pains me to say as I have had three different YZF-R1s. I am a big fan.
 
Carbide said:
The crossplane engine is a beast, but we all know 4 cylinder sled motors are most likely dying with the Apex.
That pains me to say as I have had three different YZF-R1s. I am a big fan.
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I'd have to agree, Yamaha has really been cranking out the Triples the past few years. Do they build a high RPM + gear reduction triple, larger displacement triple, or have nothing in the 60+ HP gap? 800/850 is a popular Class in the smoker world, but they do have the Muscle sled class market with the Winder/Tcat. Until Poo/Doo build a 190hp+ sled to challange that, I think they will sit out of the 160hp/800 class. The 1050 seems to keep building HP past 9000 rpm, maybe a set of cams to build power to 10,000 and higher RPM clutches? Are the Winder clutches rated/built for more RPM?
 
10.000rpm clutches .... not yet. Its well known that if you can build a lot of torque you would not need all the "rpm" to get things really moving.It would be heavy clutch weights and helix angle along with gearing to give great acceleration and silly top end.
 
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