Relax! Yamaha is not lying Down.

[SumpBuster]

The one thing us Yamaha powered Cat and Yamaha owners have as a advantage in this situation is that even as the miles rack on we do not have to sell since the major part of our sleds the engine will last a lifetime. The rest of sled will fail but most of those parts can be fixed affordably. Parts can be sourced used or made by us. Once we own a Yamaha powered machine we really dont need the factories to keep them going. That is a HUGE advantage in every way that 2 st guys do not have. We can wait it out and not lose our butts $ wise especially with all the help here at TY. Always said built by Yamaha and rebuilt by Team TY!

I would add bulletproofed by TY people! Lol

 

[whitedust1]

The way Cat is going sure seems to mirror what Yamaha did already business wise. It sure makes me wonder if Yamaha has control of Cat already. Either by ownership or contract. Think about it. Business $ wise it would make no sense for the Public or even the employees to know if a sale or control change is made. Legally here in US there is laws on the books allowing very tight secrecy in business sales even for publicly owned companies. Nobody I know has actually seen the contract between Cat and Yamaha. Just dont know. Eventually the Public not knowing is going to harm employee/dealer retention and sales enough that the direction of both will have to be made known. Must be getting close to that now. Cat side is really talking about it this year too.

Textron sure is acting like Yamaha is the sled division and is dismantling the AC brand. The public, dealers employees, magazines all admit they don’t know what is happening with AC or Yamaha snow divisions. Only possibilities I can wrap my head around is Textron continues to contract build the the Yamaha lineup , AC is gone as a brand as well as distribution or Yamaha buys TRF or the procross chassis and builds sleds somewhere else. My buds and I are already at the breaking point with Yamaha most were Apex riders and have moved on to the doo 900t 4s or are moving on now selling their Apexs. Imo Yamaha needs to commit to a future too many are done waiting and have lost faith in anything new from Yamaha. Yamaha say something PLEASE!!!!

 

[cannondale27]

Textron sure is acting like Yamaha is the sled division and is dismantling the AC brand. The public, dealers employees, magazines all admit they don’t know what is happening with AC or Yamaha snow divisions. Only possibilities I can wrap my head around is Textron continues to contract build the the Yamaha lineup , AC is gone as a brand as well as distribution or Yamaha buys TRF or the procross chassis and builds sleds somewhere else. My buds and I are already at the breaking point with Yamaha most were Apex riders and have moved on to the doo 900t 4s or are moving on now selling their Apexs. Imo Yamaha needs to commit to a future too many are done waiting and have lost faith in anything new from Yamaha. Yamaha say something PLEASE!!!!

I agree. It is a breaking point. For example the GYTR/Soqi shocks I am having a heck of a time finding certain parts. Substituting parts from other brands and sourcing takes alot of time. Most issues are neglect or crash damage though but some is just plain age and miles so just really take care of your sleds guys simple things like fighting corrosion at end of season with a good wash/drying and coating everything with WD or something is a pain and no help short term but 5-10 years later is a huge difference.

 

[T-Bone]

That might depend on if they were to retain any of the Arctic engineers who I would bet have been working on updates to the procross. This chassis has not had any major upgrades for a while now and yet it still competes well with the Ski- doo and Polaris which have both seen many changes. Some of which have made them more like the Procross such as Ski-doo’s “new” taller spindles to improve handling which the procross has had for years. All Yamaha would need to do is put a good chain case and drive axle in and update some electronics along with some quality control enhancements and a little Yamaha fit and finish and there you go. I do think they already know what there plans are and I’m sure they have been playing with there own designs but with a sport that’s not growing and who’s demographics keep getting older they may not see a reason to pursue it.

I get it that the sport is shrinking. Sales are down and demographics are getting older. Not a lot of new blood coming into the sport. Cost of entry into the sport is potentially expensive. I just don’t understand why some people continue to give Yamaha a pass or use this as the excuse for where Yamaha finds itself.

Look at it a different way. If there are 100,000 snowmobiles to be sold worldwide next year (I just picked a number) and assume the following market shares. Ski-doo 45%, Polaris 40%, AC 10% and Yamaha 5%. These too are just estimate based on data a couple years old. If Ski-Doo and Polaris find it profitable to design and develop new sleds why not Yamaha think it’s a bad investment to develop new sleds. Can they not compete with the current products offered by SD and Pol? Can they not take back market share from the manufactures selling more than they do?
The answers to those questions is obviously no they don’t think they can.
I’m glad they developed the SW engine. But what percent market share did they think they were going to gain by fling a hyper sled for $15,000 - $17,000? And I don’t care how nice of sled the ACViper is, the SD and Pol 600 is in fare greater demand and Yamaha has ignored this for nearly a decade.
Yamaha's approach has been to try and change the culture of snowmobiling with the 4 stroke. It worked to a degree but cleaner more efficient two strokes still dominate the demand and until Yamaha acknowledges there past failure to change the culture and make A clean burning efficient two stroke, they will continue to flounder and divide us with “we’ll wait until next year” propaganda.

 

[Deeppow16]

I get it that the sport is shrinking. Sales are down and demographics are getting older. Not a lot of new blood coming into the sport. Cost of entry into the sport is potentially expensive. I just don’t understand why some people continue to give Yamaha a pass or use this as the excuse for where Yamaha finds itself.

Look at it a different way. If there are 100,000 snowmobiles to be sold worldwide next year (I just picked a number) and assume the following market shares. Ski-doo 45%, Polaris 40%, AC 10% and Yamaha 5%. These too are just estimate based on data a couple years old. If Ski-Doo and Polaris find it profitable to design and develop new sleds why not Yamaha think it’s a bad investment to develop new sleds. Can they not compete with the current products offered by SD and Pol? Can they not take back market share from the manufactures selling more than they do?
The answers to those questions is obviously no they don’t think they can.
I’m glad they developed the SW engine. But what percent market share did they think they were going to gain by fling a hyper sled for $15,000 - $17,000? And I don’t care how nice of sled the ACViper is, the SD and Pol 600 is in fare greater demand and Yamaha has ignored this for nearly a decade.
Yamaha's approach has been to try and change the culture of snowmobiling with the 4 stroke. It worked to a degree but cleaner more efficient two strokes still dominate the demand and until Yamaha acknowledges there past failure to change the culture and make A clean burning efficient two stroke, they will continue to flounder and divide us with “we’ll wait until next year” propaganda.

Yamaha made a huge mistake when the stopped building 2 strokes. They gambled with the future of the market and lost IMO. Yes them make great 4 strokes motors. That's no argument but that's not what the majority of the market wants. The numbers don't lie when it comes to that.

 

[SumpBuster]

Yamaha made a huge mistake when the stopped building 2 strokes. They gambled with the future of the market and lost IMO. Yes them make great 4 strokes motors. That's no argument but that's not what the majority of the market wants. The numbers don't lie when it comes to that.

I don't disagree, especially for specific uses, like mountain...etc. But for the average aggressive trail guys, not one doo rider did not absolutely love the sidewinder. Like the old days, when 'skidooing' meant snowmobiling, many buy ski doo just because it's now #1. It used to be last in sales through the 90's.
The majority of people I ride with are now on yamaha powered 4 strokes, of one type or another. I don't know why, really, but they seem to love not worrying about getting back home. Yeah, Im fully aware of the sw issues, but mines been perfect. So far.

 

[whitedust1]

I don't disagree, especially for specific uses, like mountain...etc. But for the average aggressive trail guys, not one doo rider did not absolutely love the sidewinder. Like the old days, when 'skidooing' meant snowmobiling, many buy ski doo just because it's now #1. It used to be last in sales through the 90's.
The majority of people I ride with are now on yamaha powered 4 strokes, of one type or another. I don't know why, really, but they seem to love not worrying about getting back home. Yeah, Im fully aware of the sw issues, but mines been perfect. So far.

No doubt to be a market force you need clean 2s and 4s to effectively compete in today’s snowmobile market which SD has done well. Yamaha could compete with SD they just don’t at this time.

 

[Deeppow16]

I don't disagree, especially for specific uses, like mountain...etc. But for the average aggressive trail guys, not one doo rider did not absolutely love the sidewinder. Like the old days, when 'skidooing' meant snowmobiling, many buy ski doo just because it's now #1. It used to be last in sales through the 90's.
The majority of people I ride with are now on yamaha powered 4 strokes, of one type or another. I don't know why, really, but they seem to love not worrying about getting back home. Yeah, Im fully aware of the sw issues, but mines been perfect. So far.

Yup I get everything you are saying. I just really think Yamaha screwed up when they stopped making 2 strokes.

 

[74Nitro]

Yamaha made a huge mistake when the stopped building 2 strokes. They gambled with the future of the market and lost IMO. Yes them make great 4 strokes motors. That's no argument but that's not what the majority of the market wants. The numbers don't lie when it comes to that.

It was more the chassis and suspension, than the engine.

 

[74Nitro]

I don't disagree, especially for specific uses, like mountain...etc. But for the average aggressive trail guys, not one doo rider did not absolutely love the sidewinder. Like the old days, when 'skidooing' meant snowmobiling, many buy ski doo just because it's now #1. It used to be last in sales through the 90's.
The majority of people I ride with are now on yamaha powered 4 strokes, of one type or another. I don't know why, really, but they seem to love not worrying about getting back home. Yeah, Im fully aware of the sw issues, but mines been perfect. So far.

It would really suck if I had to go back to a two-stroke, I sure would miss the big turbo power!

 

[T-Bone]

It would really suck if I had to go back to a two-stroke, I sure would miss the big turbo power!

It’s not either or. They can make both two and 4 strokes.

 

[T-Bone]

I don't disagree, especially for specific uses, like mountain...etc. But for the average aggressive trail guys, not one doo rider did not absolutely love the sidewinder. Like the old days, when 'skidooing' meant snowmobiling, many buy ski doo just because it's now #1. It used to be last in sales through the 90's.
The majority of people I ride with are now on yamaha powered 4 strokes, of one type or another. I don't know why, really, but they seem to love not worrying about getting back home. Yeah, Im fully aware of the sw issues, but mines been perfect. So far.

None of this is saying the SW is not a good sled. All of your friends and fellow riders could love them, but the facts are their sales numbers are minimal compared to 600 and 800 2-strokes. This is about Yamaha surviving as a snowmobile manufacture. You simply can not ignore 75% of the market and expect to compete. As much as you like your SW far more people vote with their pocketbooks and buy the competitions 2 strokes. Not because they are better but that’s what they want.

 

[rtx moose]

well yamaha had something to do with artic cats DSI on there 2 strokes years ago!!they can produce a killer 2 stroke if they have a gun to there head!!!!

 

[ClutchMaster]

Just wanted to say something about 2 strokes.

#1 they can be made reliable especially with today’s electronics and detonation control.

#2 the “Disposable” adjective, as many say they are, is just not true. The rings get worn and catch the ports causing failures. A simple maintenance of replacing the rings at around 8k miles would allow these engines to last longer.

This is not as much work as some would think. On the older easy engine access snowmobiles it only takes a couple of hours.

 

[rbell14]

Just wanted to say something about 2 strokes.

#1 they can be made reliable especially with today’s electronics and detonation control.

#2 the “Disposable” as many say they are, is just not true. The rings get worn and catch the ports causing failures. A simple maintenance of replacing the rings at around 8k miles would allow these engines to last longer.

This is not as much work as some would think. On the older easy engine access snowmobiles it only takes a couple of hours.

I totally agree. I love my Viper and the 4 stroke but many guys I ride with are running 2 stroke Polaris sleds and merely do redo the top end around 8, 000 miles. It's not that expensive or big of a job to do. New clean 2 stroke technology has kept those sleds alive beyond what many thought would be the end of the 2 strokes due to emissions.