Secondary clutch spring.

[NOS-PRO]

Wow,terry you are correct,i just got the Dalton monster orange/blk,man it is same wire as my tpi orange but one more coil and longer,i wonder where to start,my stm weights are over loaded with 2 more grams on heel,same 14 grms in tip,and 30/90 blk/pink ulmer primary spring,i have not blown a belt yet in 1500 miles,but I took stock Yamaha yellow,on stm 38 at 70 degrees,and had to much heat for me,and way to low rpms,with heavy front/soft sprung,but my sled likes his primary spring lots,and stm weights work good so far,now I have stm steeper multy coming,and wondering where to wrap Dalton king kong lol 50 degrees maybe,my start angle is 42 now vrs 38?

Yes, that Dalton is way longer and load is more also.

So, the Yellow Yamaha had too much heat also.....

 

[NOS-PRO]

Oh ya,one thing I do like about daltons spring,is length of tangs,longer,tpi and cats or atms are short,and we had the red/blk on last year wrapped at 30 degrees,and it was to much on the 38,and it would pop out of the helix end.Allen wanted it wrapped at 10 degrees,maybe than it would stay in?

The length of tangs has been corrected and are longer. The TP test springs were way too long, so we asked them to shorten the tangs. They went a little overboard, but TP hasn't had a spring fail yet or come out.

 

[snowbeast]

Yes, that Dalton is way longer and torsion is more also.

So, the Yellow Yamaha had too much heat also.....

Ya,so I am kinda wondering about Dalton orange being same wire and top rate,dale states a lot are wraping it to 70 wow after handling it,i wonder what 70 will do? I was thinking starting light and working up,but with 42 to start,i just don't know,i guess I will find out,once the darn rain stops.

 

[snowbeast]

Yes, that Dalton is way longer and torsion is more also.

So, the Yellow Yamaha had too much heat also.....

Ya,but now thinking about it,i was trying to make up rpms,with secondary,and you should never do that,i just did not bring tools to take my stm weights apart and lighten them up,which I do tomorrow,so maybe them being so heavy,with light primary spring,and 38 straight on stock secondary was just asking for heat,on long wo pulls,past 2000 feet.

 

[LouTurbo]

Nos-Pro,
Did you run the TP big venom with TP orange spring on stock motor?
If so did you find improvement ?

 

[helix]

That Dalton spring is 3.937 free length where the TP orange is .537 less. That's more side pressure with the Dalton..... The stock spring is .800 shorter length than the Dalton spring.

Also, the Dalton spring is 43 lbs. more load at 2.52 than the TP orange spring. Dalton is 53 lbs. more load than stock. The TP orange is only 10 different.

Got the specifications on all 3 springs yesterday from Lonn.


I agree with all the differences in clutch setups. @shagman and myself are the creators of the TP orange spring and testing was done on asphalt, grass, trail, off-trail and was tested on a bunch of sleds from stock to 285 horse big turbo setups. Did we try all clutching setups? No, I wish I was being paid to do all these tests, but I'm not.

I believe that what Dale has mentioned in his other post is that the more flatter/heavier profile weights are keeping the primary forced in full shift mode and the secondary is fighting to bring it back. Adding more side pressure isn't going to help in this situation. IMO, from reading all the posts, the heavier weights are what is blowing belts more often.

Lots of good info right now in threads about clutching. But there is some bad/wrong info also. Compared to the Dalton black/orange spring.... the true "Monster" spring is the Dalton spring by what I see in black and white.

Monster?...how much torsion ?...have you compared any of it compared to stock or others?

I have no problem with any of the springs out there, and I like Lonn, and his spring probably works fine. I've certainly never said any different. There is no need to try to discredit anything and get all defensive about anything just because you helped to develop a spring...thats all fine. The spring you have is probably working good for you...you have proven it for sure, and I assume it is working good for others.

So i recently came on here...I do some reading, and it seems a few have to use a different torsion setting with it...so what?...adjust it. It doesnt mean it is not any good and I'm certainly not saying so.
Breath man.
life is short

 

[ClutchMaster]

No way are you getting my top secret clutching secrets....

Uhhhh well I’m thinking nobody wants them anyhow since Rummage sale kicked your .....

 

[helix]

Yes, that Dalton is way longer and torsion is more also.

So, the Yellow Yamaha had too much heat also.....

given a spring is the same length and diameter and wire...
...more coils = weaker.
less coils = stronger.

I have never seen a TPI orange secondary spring, but if it is as some are saying less coils....less coils means stronger torsion...more coils is softer torsion...more coils spreads the load on more wire and is easier to twist ( as long as exact same wire size)

...and even for compression, ...if two springs are exact same length and exact same wire diameter ...and the diameter of the coiled spring is same....but one has 4 coils and one has five coils....the 5 coils will be softer...period.

I have developed hundred (s) of springs for prototypes in many different applications. We use many different suppliers based on the style of the spring, and I work one on one regularly with some of the same design guys as OEM. This is simple engineering that can come from any spring design software and easy to prove.

We demonstrate in the above chart how the Black /orange dalton spring is less torsion than stock...and more compression

The TPI spring may have some comparisons that you have referenced there for compression...it is different length and number of coils. I have no idea about the number of coils or the spring tang positions and how it relates to the positions in the clutch

"Monsters"...black and white....? I dont know man. In my opinion it is not always good to just say "stronger than this or that", sometimes a bit of real data helps people compare with numbers.

Like I said, no worries. I'll get one.
I'll get one and compare both of the "monsters" for you in many ways including torsion and then you will finally know yourself as well.

I'm sure that you can tune with either one, they are just different.

Dale

 

[NOS-PRO]

Nos-Pro,
Did you run the TP big venom with TP orange spring on stock motor?
If so did you find improvement ?

Yes, the stock engine is where we saw the most improvement.

Monster?...how much torsion ?...have you compared any of it compared to stock or others?

I have no problem with any of the springs out there, and I like Lonn, and his spring probably works fine. I've certainly never said any different. There is no need to try to discredit anything and get all defensive about anything just because you helped to develop a spring...thats all fine. The spring you have is probably working good for you...you have proven it for sure, and I assume it is working good for others.

So i recently came on here...I do some reading, and it seems a few have to use a different torsion setting with it...so what?...adjust it. It doesnt mean it is not any good and I'm certainly not saying so.
Breath man.
life is short

Helix, my response was to what a few members are calling the TP orange spring a "monster" spring, when it is only 10 lbs. different than the stock spring. Not trying to discredit any spring, if people want to use a spring....go at it.

The stock spring, the Dalton black/orange and the TP orange were tested at Lonn's spring supplier and the "monster" spring comment came about in another post. The TP orange spring is very close to the stock spring. These are Lonn's words.

Real world results, no....I have not tested the Dalton black/orange spring. As mentioned, I have what is written in black and white from Lonn's spring supplier when members of this site called the TP orange spring the "Monster" spring.

 

[LouTurbo]

Waiting for Big Venom , hole shot helix and orange spring to arrive and will run it against my buds stock setup. We both have 2017 LTX LE , same studs and pattern and we both weigh 250lbs.

 

[NOS-PRO]

@helix

Dale, isn't torsion and load the same thing? If it is not....then I am wrong on torsion comment. I was referring to side pressure/load.

 

[shagman]

given a spring is the same length and diameter and wire...
...more coils = weaker.
less coils = stronger.

I have never seen a TPI orange secondary spring, but if it is as some are saying less coils....less coils means stronger torsion...more coils is softer torsion...more coils spreads the load on more wire and is easier to twist ( as long as exact same wire size)

...and even for compression, ...if two springs are exact same length and exact same wire diameter ...and the diameter of the coiled spring is same....but one has 4 coils and one has five coils....the 5 coils will be softer...period.

I have developed hundred (s) of springs for prototypes in many different applications. We use many different suppliers based on the style of the spring, and I work one on one regularly with some of the same design guys as OEM. This is simple engineering that can come from any spring design software and easy to prove.

We demonstrate in the above chart how the Black /orange dalton spring is less torsion than stock...and more compression

The TPI spring may have some comparisons that you have referenced there for compression...it is different length and number of coils. I have no idea about the number of coils or the spring tang positions and how it relates to the positions in the clutch

"Monsters"...black and white....? I dont know man. In my opinion it is not always good to just say "stronger than this or that", sometimes a bit of real data helps people compare with numbers.

Like I said, no worries. I'll get one.
I'll get one and compare both of the "monsters" for you in many ways including torsion and then you will finally know yourself as well.

I'm sure that you can tune with either one, they are just different.

Dale

Dale.
It was not Terry’s intention to discredit your spring or any of your products. You make good products for the snowmobile industry and we appreciate it. Again sorry if it appeared like your spring was being discredited as it was not. It’s just like you said different than ours and stock. Thank you for all the work you do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[helix]

@helix

Dale, isn't torsion and load the same thing? If it is not....then I am wrong on torsion comment. I was referring to side pressure/load.

Yes, the stock engine is where we saw the most improvement.



Helix, my response was to what a few members are calling the TP orange spring a "monster" spring, when it is only 10 lbs. different than the stock spring. Not trying to discredit any spring, if people want to use a spring....go at it.

The stock spring, the Dalton black/orange and the TP orange were tested at Lonn's spring supplier and the "monster" spring comment came about in another post. The TP orange spring is very close to the stock spring. These are Lonn's words.

Real world results, no....I have not tested the Dalton black/orange spring. As mentioned, I have what is written in black and white from Lonn's spring supplier when members of this site called the TP orange spring the "Monster" spring.

Hey yes, I understand that. all good.

I'll get one of those TPI when I can and get the results. Torsion value and compression loads are different things and have effect on each other. I'm sure it will be good tuning info for some who may use both. Our CNC shop runs 12 hrs per day 7 days...so I personally work a lot of hours this time of year and try to managew my time the best I can, but soon I'll try to get one in and set up some stuff and see results that may help.

 

[helix]

Dale.
It was not Terry’s intention to discredit your spring or any of your products. You make good products for the snowmobile industry and we appreciate it. Again sorry if it appeared like your spring was being discredited as it was not. It’s just like you said different than ours and stock. Thank you for all the work you do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shagman,
for sure.
Options are a good thing. I know how forums can go and be interpreted, I probably should have known better than to come in here,lol.
I was only here to try to make public some things that we get asked by phone and email daily to help answer a few questions about our products. I'm not on here to try to pound my chest and say "buy from me" or any of that,lol.....I'm too old for that. I just do what we do and hope someone likes what we have to offer. Lonn does not have to prove himself to anyone either. Him and I have had some great laughs over the years about the snowmobile industry.

I'll go back to my shop now!

 

[XP123]

given a spring is the same length and diameter and wire...
...more coils = weaker.
less coils = stronger.

I have never seen a TPI orange secondary spring, but if it is as some are saying less coils....less coils means stronger torsion...more coils is softer torsion...more coils spreads the load on more wire and is easier to twist ( as long as exact same wire size)

...and even for compression, ...if two springs are exact same length and exact same wire diameter ...and the diameter of the coiled spring is same....but one has 4 coils and one has five coils....the 5 coils will be softer...period.

I have developed hundred (s) of springs for prototypes in many different applications. We use many different suppliers based on the style of the spring, and I work one on one regularly with some of the same design guys as OEM. This is simple engineering that can come from any spring design software and easy to prove.

We demonstrate in the above chart how the Black /orange dalton spring is less torsion than stock...and more compression

The TPI spring may have some comparisons that you have referenced there for compression...it is different length and number of coils. I have no idea about the number of coils or the spring tang positions and how it relates to the positions in the clutch

"Monsters"...black and white....? I dont know man. In my opinion it is not always good to just say "stronger than this or that", sometimes a bit of real data helps people compare with numbers.

Like I said, no worries. I'll get one.
I'll get one and compare both of the "monsters" for you in many ways including torsion and then you will finally know yourself as well.

I'm sure that you can tune with either one, they are just different.

Dale

Thanks Dale for this info! I have your B/O spring along with the TP Orange and my head is spinning right now with all the different info coming from all directions. I would love to see the exact differences between these two springs based on fact not just what guys speculate or assume. I do know that my own testing using my hands after a long pull tells me the Dalton runs cooler than the TP. That is with the TP set at 3-3 and Dalton 6-1. The only problem with my take is I have no real factual info on this and there may be other factors involved with my findings. I tested on the same track but on different days and in different conditions. I can't wait to see your results between these two springs.