Thunder Products Orange Secondary spring **Update**

[twyztid]

I have a 270 Power Trail tune on my Sidewinder. Running TP Heavy Hitter weights, TP Orange primary spring, stock 35 helix, TP Orange Secondary spring wrapped at 3-2 (50). Offset is 58.9mm with no washers or clip.

Not sure if the darkened areas on the secondary sheaves are from a slipping belt (needing more wrap) or too much wrap. I've only ridden this sled about 375 miles yet. The sled has only about 780 miles on it. I was running a new Gates Carbon belt (leftover from my turbo Viper) but blew that belt at about 300 miles on it. Clutches were hot when the belt blew. I could only hold my fingers on them for around 3 seconds.

 

[jonlafon1]

I have a 270 Power Trail tune on my Sidewinder. Running TP Heavy Hitter weights, TP Orange primary spring, stock 35 helix, TP Orange Secondary spring wrapped at 3-2 (50). Offset is 58.9mm with no washers or clip.

Not sure if the darkened areas on the secondary sheaves are from a slipping belt (needing more wrap) or too much wrap. I've only ridden this sled about 375 miles yet. The sled has only about 780 miles on it. I was running a new Gates Carbon belt (leftover from my turbo Viper) but blew that belt at about 300 miles on it. Clutches were hot when the belt blew. I could only hold my fingers on them for around 3 seconds.

View attachment 160346

Get that offset to 57.5-58 mm. Then try it at your 3/2. If not go 3/3 check for heat. Then go 6/1. You get the idea. I’m not a fan of that belt you blew but I know some like them.
Thunder may have some more advice but I feel you should start with getting the offset lower.

 

[twyztid]

Get that offset to 57.5-58 mm. Then try it at your 3/2. If not go 3/3 check for heat. Then go 6/1. You get the idea. I’m not a fan of that belt you blew but I know some like them.
Thunder may have some more advice but I feel you should start with getting the offset lower.

I won't be able to work on changing the offset until next season. I am planning one more ride. I am already running the TP Orange at 3/2. I ran it at 3/1 on my turbo Viper. I am no longer a fan of that Gates Carbon belt either but I am going finish up the year with out 2 last ride by either using my 3 spare carbon belts or my low-mile 8JP belt. I have a new XS825 belt that I will be using next season.

I realize that you have run that TP Orange spring wrapped far more than most but you seem to be the only one. It appears most are running it at 3/1 or 3/2.

 

[TPAY243]

I'm running at 3-3 on a stock Winder you need to increase your wrap to at least 60 or 70 degrees 40 and 50 is not enough your slipping your belt more than likely.

 

[jonlafon1]

I won't be able to work on changing the offset until next season. I am planning one more ride. I am already running the TP Orange at 3/2. I ran it at 3/1 on my turbo Viper. I am no longer a fan of that Gates Carbon belt either but I am going finish up the year with out 2 last ride by either using my 3 spare carbon belts or my low-mile 8JP belt. I have a new XS825 belt that I will be using next season.

I realize that you have run that TP Orange spring wrapped far more than most but you seem to be the only one. It appears most are running it at 3/1 or 3/2.

I’m running a 45 degree helix. That’s why I’m very tight on wrap. Start where you are and go higher. Get a good heat check on the clutches BEFORE wrapping tighter.

 

[twyztid]

I'm running at 3-3 on a stock Winder you need to increase your wrap to at least 60 or 70 degrees 40 and 50 is not enough your slipping your belt more than likely.

With a TP Orange secondary spring?

 

[twyztid]

I’m running a 45 degree helix. That’s why I’m very tight on wrap. Start where you are and go higher. Get a good heat check on the clutches BEFORE wrapping tighter.

I've read that the TP Orange at 40 wrap is the same tension as the Dalton Black/Orange at a 70 wrap... which I believe would be the recommended wrap for this 270 tune if I were running that Dalton spring.

You are saying that I am slipping the belt and need more wrap. What indications would there be if I had too much wrap and the secondary was too tight and was resisting opening too much? That would also create heat.

 

[jonlafon1]

I've read that the TP Orange at 40 wrap is the same tension as the Dalton Black/Orange at a 70 wrap... which I believe would be the recommended wrap for this 270 tune if I were running that Dalton spring.

You are saying that I am slipping the belt and need more wrap. What indications would there be if I had too much wrap and the secondary was too tight and was resisting opening too much? That would also create heat.

Depends on which version black orange your using. They have two versions. Version two is stiffer. I’m saying you should start where you are and continue to wrap it tighter UNTIL the clutch temps drop down. Then stop. But until the offset is set properly your wasting your time changing components or spring wrap. 57.5-58 mm. Realize that offset number range has been tried and true by many very good clutch tuners and hard core aftermarket guys that do this stuff for a living. Sorry but until the offset is right your chasing clutch set ups.

 

[jonlafon1]

Okay you can’t fix offset before trip. Set that orange at 6/2 then. That’s what I would do.

 

[twyztid]

Okay you can’t fix offset before trip. Set that orange at 6/2 then. That’s what I would do.

Yeah... no time to get the secondary post machined before Wednesday. Plus, we'll be luck to get 240 miles in 2 days due to the warm up in the U.P. next week. We are just going to try to find some snow to ride on. Then it's done for me until next season.

Why would you say 6/2 now... after seeing that I can't change my offset right now... vs. trying the 3/3 or 6/1 you told me earlier? I don't see where the offset being off 1mm would affect what wrap I should be running the TP orange spring.

 

[jonlafon1]

Based on your set up and what others are doing. 6/1 or 6/2. Ultimate XS belt. 1mm offset is lots when turning up the power on these things. Not a lot of room for error in clutching on these winders especially tuned. It seems your looking for a simple solution on this site. And I’m giving you the choices based on others on here that do not have belt issues. Your not able to get offset in proper range. So you choose how to proceed. Take the time to test with different wrap on the secondary spring. EVERY sled is different and testing and temp checks is the only answer. I just returned from the UP Saturday evening. Good luck.

 

[TPAY243]

With a TP Orange secondary spring?

Ya with a TP Orange spring why is that so hard to believe I'm telling ya wrap it at 60 degrees and try it.

 

[bleedyamaha]

Ya with a TP Orange spring why is that so hard to believe I'm telling ya wrap it at 60 degrees and try it.

TP told me on the phone with my orange spring and reveres helix to run a 3/2 instead of 3/3 with my redline belt. My old 8jps were being squeezed to hard and creating to much heat and shredding. I have it set up now but will have to wait till next season to try.

 

[fourload]

Knapp said the TP @90 is equal to the Dalton version 2 @90. I would definitely run it at least @60 or 70 to try. I ran mine@ 40 stock but am wrapping it @ 70 now with a ms 16 tune and 35/39 helix. @40 my clutches ran much warmer with the ms 16 tune. Don’t be afraid to wrap it.

 

[justinator]

Yeah... no time to get the secondary post machined before Wednesday. Plus, we'll be luck to get 240 miles in 2 days due to the warm up in the U.P. next week. We are just going to try to find some snow to ride on. Then it's done for me until next season.

Why would you say 6/2 now... after seeing that I can't change my offset right now... vs. trying the 3/3 or 6/1 you told me earlier? I don't see where the offset being off 1mm would affect what wrap I should be running the TP orange spring.

The reason that offset can have an effect on spring tension is that when your offset is too far out the belt puts more pressure on the inside sheave of secondary which is the moveable sheave, so it kinda helps push it open, this making the spring act softer. Many on here have not had the best luck with the gates carbon so Id say to avoid it. Looking at your clutch pics it looks like you had some slip at top end but the rest of the darker sheave appearance is likely rubber transfer from overclamping a soft belt at lower speeds. Not common to slip secondary early in the shift because of all the surface area. I had the same issue with the xs belt with too much tension. Id release tension and sheaves wouldnt be so dark at beginning of shift but slip near full shift. Like mentioned, every sled and setup, conditions, traction, and rider weight is different so increase wrap 10 degrees at a time checking heat to see if it improves, or gets worse and youll know what direction to go.