For now I believe that if it turns out to be a no go for this ride because of no snow, we will move it to Mapledale. If there is no snow there we can move it to Tug Hill as a third option.
MCApex44
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I have faith that there will be snow by then. It has been so warm this fall that 'the snow manufacturer' (Lake Erie) which is also warmer than usual, is gonna wallup this area when it does hit. The forecast(s) I saw were a mild start to the winter then BAM...heavy snow/above average snowfall. Plan the trip...the snow will be here!!
325 miles up on these trails!?!? Holy crap! We've busted the 200 mile mark at times when the trails are premo but never anywhere near 325!!!
NY AttakGT
TY 4 Stroke Guru
BBW, the new Apex is looking sharp with the white skis and hood vents! Very reminiscent of the Monster Energy Attak of years past.
"Apres" literally translates to After. meaning activities after the day of snowmobiling, rather than just retiring to our respective hotel/motel rooms. The Edge was a good venue for Apres activity with the lounge area downstairs with the fireplace and whatnot..as well as...dare I say it, The Freeman Hotel! I am telling you, the TY group has to try the Freeman at least once.
I have to say, I kind of agree with the notion that we should be a little more "new rider" or "not as experienced rider" friendly on our group rides. I think many will shy away thinking they will not be able to keep up (which many cannot AFTER they start riding with the group. And have to spend the next 150-200 miles playing "catch up" for the entire ride. As happened last year and many rides prior) or want to do 200 milers and definitely get scared away when they hear 325 miles..not everybody wants to or is capable of that.
Or maybe break off into separate riding groups (when there is more than the core group of us 6 usual suspects on the rides!). A slower group that takes their time exploring and another group that goes faster and racks up the miles.
I am all for racking up miles and going fast but there is more to snowmobiling than riding fast and racking up as many miles as possible...for me anyway. Maybe others disagree. Especially for Open group riding and trying to attract others from the site to join in on the fun and sharing good times riding with their TY brothers and sisters.
As far as ride location......sounds goods good to have an alternate plan in case the Lake Erie snow Gods do not pile up the snow in Western NY.
"Apres" literally translates to After. meaning activities after the day of snowmobiling, rather than just retiring to our respective hotel/motel rooms. The Edge was a good venue for Apres activity with the lounge area downstairs with the fireplace and whatnot..as well as...dare I say it, The Freeman Hotel! I am telling you, the TY group has to try the Freeman at least once.
I have to say, I kind of agree with the notion that we should be a little more "new rider" or "not as experienced rider" friendly on our group rides. I think many will shy away thinking they will not be able to keep up (which many cannot AFTER they start riding with the group. And have to spend the next 150-200 miles playing "catch up" for the entire ride. As happened last year and many rides prior) or want to do 200 milers and definitely get scared away when they hear 325 miles..not everybody wants to or is capable of that.
Or maybe break off into separate riding groups (when there is more than the core group of us 6 usual suspects on the rides!). A slower group that takes their time exploring and another group that goes faster and racks up the miles.
I am all for racking up miles and going fast but there is more to snowmobiling than riding fast and racking up as many miles as possible...for me anyway. Maybe others disagree. Especially for Open group riding and trying to attract others from the site to join in on the fun and sharing good times riding with their TY brothers and sisters.
As far as ride location......sounds goods good to have an alternate plan in case the Lake Erie snow Gods do not pile up the snow in Western NY.
All valid points Steve. My thought on it is the vast majority of riders who have participated in the numerous group rides I've been involved with have pretty much kept pace. There is nothing stopping anyone from volunteering to lead a group on a slower(or faster) ride for the day. I'm sure most everyone has a trail map and knows how to read it. At the end of the day riders can still gather for after hours socializing if they so choose.
Whenever you want to ride out of the Freeman, say the word. I don't care where I stay(except the LeHav) as long as I can get in a good days ride. I spend way too much time marking trails/building bridges/holding fundraisers not to mention sled costs, etc. to not the ride the maximum miles possible in our three month season(if we are damn lucky).
Whenever you want to ride out of the Freeman, say the word. I don't care where I stay(except the LeHav) as long as I can get in a good days ride. I spend way too much time marking trails/building bridges/holding fundraisers not to mention sled costs, etc. to not the ride the maximum miles possible in our three month season(if we are damn lucky).
Boomer
Expert
Guys,
I know this has gotten a little passionate/defensive or however you want to characterize it, but I would like to put my 2 cents in as maybe so far I'm the only one who has been stating an alternative position on these rides. NY AttackGT (Steve) and I have been trading emails and I'd like to share some of what I said to him. Since I have been on many of the rides including the very first ever TY ride in 2004 and have a perspective and viewpoint that sometimes differ from the majority(?).
"I remember how much fun I had the first couple rides I ever made and how considerate everyone was. Hell, I was on a lousy 2 stroke, that needed new plugs at every stop, and then I was riding on borrowed sleds for a couple rides. Man...I had fun and didn't complain, cause everyone wanted to just have fun. I just wish we could have that kind of atmosphere again. I think I can do longer drives, but some days I want maybe a more relaxed ride. The last couple times I have tended to ride the tail, cause I hated having someone, make scary passes or ride my #*$&@ and just make me nervous. Problem then is, when you're in the back all day, it feels like you're riding even harder and too often trying to catch up. And, while I never got left behind it scared the hell out of me sometimes that I was left alone or lost. Then when you finally did catch up, the group would take off as soon as I'd catch up, and I couldn't get a rest.
I've ridden with Gordon and others enough when it was just us, and I never got that feeling like I was riding over my head. Something about having 7 or more sleds that seems to make it less enjoyable in some respects.
I guess my frustration so far this year, and why maybe I've been trying to change the message is that the tone has been something like "ride hard or stay home". I'm sure that there are more like me, who want to have the TY experience, but we might not hear from them, because everyone, just says be prepared for 200 miles cause that is what the group does. If you say all are welcome, mean it! Mention that if there are enough riders that we will break into maybe 2 groups (1-fast and hard and 2-less intense, wives/kids/old farts with bad kidneys/back LOL)."
The point is so far this thread just keeps stating that this group is set to how you ride and this is not going to encourage "Everyone" who might want to attend to actually come. I don't think it is fair that you state that having a trail map is a valid point to have another group go out. This isn't going to be exactly any fun if you don't know the trails or the people who are in the group. There are some experienced people who have been on these rides and can be ambassadors for TY and leaders. I almost feel like you are saying "Fine, come on the TY ride, here's a trail map go on by yourselves. We may or may not see you at the end of day. Have a nice day."
I just wondered if the message I keep seeing on this thread is the right one to encourage "Everyone" who might like to try a TY ride to come join us. Because I might not like or want to do 150-175 miles on whoopdedoo trails, doesn't mean there is something wrong with me. I want to do as many as possible, but still be able to ride again tomorrow, and share some good times and memories with my TY brethren. Too many times I was beat to hell and wanted to go home after the first day.
I just wanted to try and change the message we were sending and would like to see a message other than "well this is the way we've always ridden and no one has complained" How do know? Just because no one ever stated it here? How many times have people come to one ride and then never shown up again? I think this number is much higher than just the regular crew.
There always seems to be great planning and options for where the riding will be and where to stay, but I'd like to see a little thought and effort put into accomodating everyone who would like to ride if they can't or don't want to ride with the hard and fast group. That would of course mean having a leader for each group and plans in place in advance. It would suck to have even a couple show up and tell them "You're on your own".
I know this has gotten a little passionate/defensive or however you want to characterize it, but I would like to put my 2 cents in as maybe so far I'm the only one who has been stating an alternative position on these rides. NY AttackGT (Steve) and I have been trading emails and I'd like to share some of what I said to him. Since I have been on many of the rides including the very first ever TY ride in 2004 and have a perspective and viewpoint that sometimes differ from the majority(?).
"I remember how much fun I had the first couple rides I ever made and how considerate everyone was. Hell, I was on a lousy 2 stroke, that needed new plugs at every stop, and then I was riding on borrowed sleds for a couple rides. Man...I had fun and didn't complain, cause everyone wanted to just have fun. I just wish we could have that kind of atmosphere again. I think I can do longer drives, but some days I want maybe a more relaxed ride. The last couple times I have tended to ride the tail, cause I hated having someone, make scary passes or ride my #*$&@ and just make me nervous. Problem then is, when you're in the back all day, it feels like you're riding even harder and too often trying to catch up. And, while I never got left behind it scared the hell out of me sometimes that I was left alone or lost. Then when you finally did catch up, the group would take off as soon as I'd catch up, and I couldn't get a rest.
I've ridden with Gordon and others enough when it was just us, and I never got that feeling like I was riding over my head. Something about having 7 or more sleds that seems to make it less enjoyable in some respects.
I guess my frustration so far this year, and why maybe I've been trying to change the message is that the tone has been something like "ride hard or stay home". I'm sure that there are more like me, who want to have the TY experience, but we might not hear from them, because everyone, just says be prepared for 200 miles cause that is what the group does. If you say all are welcome, mean it! Mention that if there are enough riders that we will break into maybe 2 groups (1-fast and hard and 2-less intense, wives/kids/old farts with bad kidneys/back LOL)."
The point is so far this thread just keeps stating that this group is set to how you ride and this is not going to encourage "Everyone" who might want to attend to actually come. I don't think it is fair that you state that having a trail map is a valid point to have another group go out. This isn't going to be exactly any fun if you don't know the trails or the people who are in the group. There are some experienced people who have been on these rides and can be ambassadors for TY and leaders. I almost feel like you are saying "Fine, come on the TY ride, here's a trail map go on by yourselves. We may or may not see you at the end of day. Have a nice day."
I just wondered if the message I keep seeing on this thread is the right one to encourage "Everyone" who might like to try a TY ride to come join us. Because I might not like or want to do 150-175 miles on whoopdedoo trails, doesn't mean there is something wrong with me. I want to do as many as possible, but still be able to ride again tomorrow, and share some good times and memories with my TY brethren. Too many times I was beat to hell and wanted to go home after the first day.
I just wanted to try and change the message we were sending and would like to see a message other than "well this is the way we've always ridden and no one has complained" How do know? Just because no one ever stated it here? How many times have people come to one ride and then never shown up again? I think this number is much higher than just the regular crew.
There always seems to be great planning and options for where the riding will be and where to stay, but I'd like to see a little thought and effort put into accomodating everyone who would like to ride if they can't or don't want to ride with the hard and fast group. That would of course mean having a leader for each group and plans in place in advance. It would suck to have even a couple show up and tell them "You're on your own".
I'm going to give it a try but in all honesty, out of the much larger group I ride with there is a much smaller "core" of us who ride these trails for 175 miles a day. It is not for everyone. And I feel for Boomer, as some days up in Chatauqua the trails can be downright nasty, as bad as Tug Hill if there's a deep base and lots of traffic. If you don't have the right sled and suspension, man those can beat the crap out of you. Hell, even set up right you take a pounding. Having dealt with herniated discs myself in the past, I can't imagine doing it with the symptoms acting up.
Maybe we can see if there's someone local willing to lead a second group? I can truly see both sides....
Maybe we can see if there's someone local willing to lead a second group? I can truly see both sides....
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Remember lets try and leave the rides open to support more then just the fast riders. Maybe a few users would like to step up and take a group on a family ride, off trail or medium speed rides since the fast riders are well established.
This will assure the rides success if we can make all rider levels welcome.
Remember as long as you agree to this, it can always be a TY Ride.
This will assure the rides success if we can make all rider levels welcome.
Remember as long as you agree to this, it can always be a TY Ride.
Boomer said:
Dale, this is absolutely not what I am saying. I never used to ride the hill but since home often doesn't get good snow I was forced to start. With trail map in hand a few of us started riding most weekends. Since I always lead my small group(regardless of on the hill or home) I really became familiar with the trail systems. IMHO taking unfamiliar trails to see what they are all about is fun. If some want a short ride with slower speeds and scenery I'm certain several of us could show a route on a map that could be followed and enjoyed. No matter the size of the group someone has to be lead dog.
grizztracks
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I'd be willing to take a group for one day and do some easier riding. I've ridden this area for many years and know most of the trails. Heck, maybe I'll bring my twin girls or wife along that day.
I'd still like to spend at least one day with some of the more aggressive riders.
I'd still like to spend at least one day with some of the more aggressive riders.
MCApex44
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I live in Chautauqua County (so obviously I ride these trails) but also have a camper up in Redfield/Tug Hill area. These are two vastly different trail systems...believe me...150-200 mile days are VERY hard to achieve on WNY trails (especially when your riding w/ a large group...I dont care how fast or aggressive you think you can ride). The tight twisty trails and many road crossings do not allow you to rack up miles like you can in the Tug Hill area/trails. I'd say have the group ride together for the 1st day then everyone can make a choice wether they want to be part of the fast group or casual group on the rides/days to follow. Also, the faster group can loop around in one direction and meet up with the slower group (that went a dif direction/route) for lunch and/or to finish out the day on the ride back.
I never thought a trail ride could become so complex. I can't believe there are more road crossings in WNY then there is on Tug Hill, as I always thought there were a lot up on the hill. I keep reading from various posts about how crummy the trails are in WNY. Honk keeps telling us how good they are, and what we have been missing. What is the truth? Are they nice and smooth or not? Good thing we are riding Wed. Thurs. & Friday. Saturday I guess we will see how bad they get. I think the ride in Cranberry Lake area last year was a little
faster pace then normal. I never thought the rides I lead were too fast, at least not when your leading, and don't have all the snow dust in your face. I guess there is an advantage for going first. Some of the issues brought up in the last few posts, is the reason I am planning to have a more leisurely NY TY ride sometime in February. Maybe we will get more TYer's out. At least I will give it a try. On the other hand I have PM'ed other TY'ers from this site who have a New York address, and asked them why they don't come to one of our rides, and the # 1 reason i get back is because they think we will be going to slow for them. So it is hard to please everybody. Hope the snow hurries up and comes, or the season is going to be short.
faster pace then normal. I never thought the rides I lead were too fast, at least not when your leading, and don't have all the snow dust in your face. I guess there is an advantage for going first. Some of the issues brought up in the last few posts, is the reason I am planning to have a more leisurely NY TY ride sometime in February. Maybe we will get more TYer's out. At least I will give it a try. On the other hand I have PM'ed other TY'ers from this site who have a New York address, and asked them why they don't come to one of our rides, and the # 1 reason i get back is because they think we will be going to slow for them. So it is hard to please everybody. Hope the snow hurries up and comes, or the season is going to be short.
Honk, You never mentioned the name of the Hotel we are staying at. Is it Palm Gardens? thanks, Gordon
Mid week with the snow machine going, the trails can be great. The groomer runs very regularly and is often parked right there on Rt 60 near Cherry Creek. Like any area, though, if traffic get heavy during the day and there's a deep base the moguls can get pretty big on certain sections. There is a good mix of tighter trails interspersed with some big fields too and lots of hills. There are fairly frequent road crossings but not any more or less than any other part of WNY. It kinda depends on where we ride. I love the run out to French Creek from Cherry Creek but there are less open fields on that route than looping out to Chatauqua Lake if I remember right. And I gotta agree with MCApex - if I get 175 miles on a day in these parts I'm happy - and tired! As I said earlier, I am pretty familiar with the trails from Byrncliff back to the Northern Erie County trail system. That stretch offered some of the best riding in the area last year. It just really depends on which way the lake effect sets up and if it gets cold and stays cold through January. Oh ya, and the worst moguls I ever saw we're in the Tug Hill a few years back. I can remember seeing sleds up ahead coming at us completely disappearing and reappearing on the crests. It was crazy! I think there are definitely more road crossings in WNY than Tug Hill though. Especially when you consider how far you can run the state land on seasonal highways up there.
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grizztracks
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I won't ride Tug Hill on the weekends. As bad as the trails get here in WNY they never get as bad as Tug Hill. Normally mid to late Saturday the trails get beat up especial the closer you get to Mayville which is a popular stop on the end of the lake. If you ride east toward Chaffee (Pioneer Performance) the trails also get rough on the weekends. Last season the Byrncliff area had probably the best trail conditions in WNY.
When we get the snow here in WNY I don't even consider traveling outside the area to ride. We have some of the best and worst trails in NY. The terrain is constantly changing and the trails very from fields, seasonal roads, rail beds, logging/oil lease road to barely passable cuts through the hills. it never gets boring or old. Very seldom can you get much over 150 miles in a day. i think the most I've done in this area is just under 200 for the day and a normal or average day would be around 130 miles. It's not impossible to cover a lot of ground in a day...It's just difficult.
When we get the snow here in WNY I don't even consider traveling outside the area to ride. We have some of the best and worst trails in NY. The terrain is constantly changing and the trails very from fields, seasonal roads, rail beds, logging/oil lease road to barely passable cuts through the hills. it never gets boring or old. Very seldom can you get much over 150 miles in a day. i think the most I've done in this area is just under 200 for the day and a normal or average day would be around 130 miles. It's not impossible to cover a lot of ground in a day...It's just difficult.
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