Yamaha Cutting Production for 2019

[Sasquatch]

Me to, Yamaha has taken interest in turbo's though, I believe this is how they will be able to keep using 4 strokes to achieve more power in a smaller light weight 4 stroke engines to lighten up their chassis which seems to be a issue for some new and old customers.

While I partly agree the problem comes when you add turbo, plumbing, wastegate and intercooler. The 3 hole is 8pds lighter then the 4 hole apex engine but add the extra turbo weight and the 8 pds disappears. Now compare the 1050, increased hp but with the added cost of weight. Now someone will say that the 1050 became the 998 so its lighter. With the hp involved the crank and rods if anything are heavier. I don't see the 998 being lighter then the 1050 to the extent of making up for all the turbo parts needed to make the hp!

We can argue however that the hp achieved is more then NA could achieve! This is true of course but leads down a different path. 4 stroke will never be lighter then two strokes just for the simple fact that 4 strokes have more parts. We can argue that we can build a 500cc 2 cylinder four stroke and turbo it to make 160hp. We probably would be able to with exotic materials but it must be strong to take the stress and has all the weight of the parts needed to make the power. As a package the best you could hope for is the same weight! So with all that in mind is running a very pricey exotic sled that makes the same hp with the same weight going to compete! How much lighter will the same tech make the two stroke.

My self I'm much happier with a heavier stronger less complex NA Apex powered sled. I have no need to compete with the weight conciseness crowd and turn my nose up at a few more pds. That is the Doo hype and propaganda that ended when they built a 4 stroke of thier own. The Cat chassis is heavier then the Doo, so is the reason everyone is on the Cat wagon because of weight? Reality is the Cat chassis is a copy of the Doo design, with enough changes to stop a lawsuit!

What is needed is Yamaha to build the pyramid chassis open up the frame rails enough to drop the engine where it should be, redesign the jack shaft to accommodate the rear facing exhaust. Then just add the Apex engine to the lineup and winner winner chicken dinner! 4 engine choices in 90 130 160 and 180plus all in the same chassis! Where do I sign up for one!

 

[Sasquatch]

We've been chatting on TY about that CROSSPLANE motor since they came out with it.
A bunch of us thought it would have been great in a sled, but there were all kinds of speculations that it wouldn't work technically.
It has more low end torque & put out almost 40 hp more.

CR talked about this and the crossplane design is to smooth out the engine impulses so as to decrease the tendency to blow the traction away when exiting a corner under power. Its benefit for sleds in zero because of the CV belt drive. On the flip side a redesigned crossplane for snow with a gear reducer (dont get hung up on hp CP or R1 it drops with rpm) would make the same hp as the current Apex engine and work just as well! Now like the R1 the CP would need a lot of refinements to make it work in the snowmobile environment, a start over so to speak. R1 03 to 04 to 05 where ring changes to stop oil consumption. O6 was a redesign to the block to improve oil mist retention and not let it into the motor through the crankcase ventilation system. The gear reduction system was changed once and engine output increased twice. Those things though may be applicable to the CP but I would expect refinements to be needed once in service. All of course with no benefit over the R1 sled engine which is refined to perfection!

 

[20/80]

While I partly agree the problem comes when you add turbo, plumbing, wastegate and intercooler. The 3 hole is 8pds lighter then the 4 hole apex engine but add the extra turbo weight and the 8 pds disappears. Now compare the 1050, increased hp but with the added cost of weight. Now someone will say that the 1050 became the 998 so its lighter. With the hp involved the crank and rods if anything are heavier. I don't see the 998 being lighter then the 1050 to the extent of making up for all the turbo parts needed to make the hp!

We can argue however that the hp achieved is more then NA could achieve! This is true of course but leads down a different path. 4 stroke will never be lighter then two strokes just for the simple fact that 4 strokes have more parts. We can argue that we can build a 500cc 2 cylinder four stroke and turbo it to make 160hp. We probably would be able to with exotic materials but it must be strong to take the stress and has all the weight of the parts needed to make the power. As a package the best you could hope for is the same weight! So with all that in mind is running a very pricey exotic sled that makes the same hp with the same weight going to compete! How much lighter will the same tech make the two stroke.

My self I'm much happier with a heavier stronger less complex NA Apex powered sled. I have no need to compete with the weight conciseness crowd and turn my nose up at a few more pds. That is the Doo hype and propaganda that ended when they built a 4 stroke of thier own. The Cat chassis is heavier then the Doo, so is the reason everyone is on the Cat wagon because of weight? Reality is the Cat chassis is a copy of the Doo design, with enough changes to stop a lawsuit!

What is needed is Yamaha to build the pyramid chassis open up the frame rails enough to drop the engine where it should be, redesign the jack shaft to accommodate the rear facing exhaust. Then just add the Apex engine to the lineup and winner winner chicken dinner! 4 engine choices in 90 130 160 and 180plus all in the same chassis! Where do I sign up for one!

I Agree, but why do sledders take light weight over reliability when they are paying big bucks for it, this weight issue in the sled business has been a buying factor for a long time, you would think Yamaha would have addressed this issue alittle with their 4 stroke tech.

 

[Sasquatch]

They can go that far, if you are under 5 foot 6. I am 6 feet even, 50 years old, cant ride that chassis that far any more. I can ride the Procross 200 miles a day on consecutive days. And 200 miles in VT is VERY different than 200 miles in Canada of Michigan.

Im 6'4" 61 years old with bad knees, the most I've rode is 350 miles, yep I was tired, then rode 250 the next day. Course before the 350 was 3 days of 200 to 250 mile days. Canada is one big country with different riding everywhere you go so I'd fully expect VT type trails in it! In Canada I have rode every type of trail imaginable with some I wouldn't even class as trails, more like goat paths.

Last year I rode Northern Ontario, very fast trails if groomed but because of traffic lots of pounded to hell trails. 5 days 1200 miles. Could you have rode the pounded out trails faster on your procross Cat chassis then I on my Yamaha XTX? Yep you could and would have! In the end though, the procross sleds the Doo sleds and the Yamaha sleds all ended up at the same hotels every night. Thats how touring works! Then the next day we rode again to the next hotel!

 

[sheetwright]

for info on Cat with Yamaha

is 15:50 starting the hint of a new Apex???

 

[Sasquatch]

I Agree, but why do sledders take light weight over reliability when they are paying big bucks for it, this weight issue in the sled business has been a buying factor for a long time, you would think Yamaha would have addressed this issue alittle with their 4 stroke tech.

Yamaha's biggest problem is their strongest asset! They have refined the delta box into a totally new sled that being their best asset! The problem is they started with a sled that was leaps ahead of the competition but got stuck on refining and the competition flew by! The Apex XTX is a sweetheart of a sled but you can't hang your whole line on one sled. Thats how Doo used their advertising against them!

They needed a rider forward sled to balance the line and the phazer and nytro didn't fill the gap and where met with Yamaha buyer dislike and complaining!. I would go as far as to say they where the downfall because Yamaha stopped moving forward after them. They needed to take one more step, maybe the Japan earthquake nuclear disaster is the other problem as no doubt it screwed them up as well! Yamaha just stopped moving forward developmentally wise and is now stagnant!

They seem to be to busy filling dealer showrooms with the competitions sleds to move their brand forward. When one sits on their laurels for too long they run the risk of complacency. The 2011 Apex was a huge refinement and could have been a new sled, it would have not been met that way by the competition and the Yamaha riders as such so best it is still an Apex! So nothing in 10 years from Yamaha and the current thought is buy sleds from Cat! All because they can't build a rider forward chassis! Why does that just make you go Whaaaat the he!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[20/80]

Yamaha's biggest problem is their strongest asset! They have refined the delta box into a totally new sled that being their best asset! The problem is they started with a sled that was leaps ahead of the competition but got stuck on refining and the competition flew by! The Apex XTX is a sweetheart of a sled but you can't hang your whole line on one sled. Thats how Doo used their advertising against them!

They needed a rider forward sled to balance the line and the phazer and nytro didn't fill the gap and where met with Yamaha buyer dislike and complaining!. I would go as far as to say they where the downfall because Yamaha stopped moving forward after them. They needed to take one more step, maybe the Japan earthquake nuclear disaster is the other problem as no doubt it screwed them up as well! Yamaha just stopped moving forward developmentally wise and is now stagnant!

They seem to be to busy filling dealer showrooms with the competitions sleds to move their brand forward. When one sits on their laurels for too long they run the risk of complacency. The 2011 Apex was a huge refinement and could have been a new sled, it would have not been met that way by the competition and the Yamaha riders as such so best it is still an Apex! So nothing in 10 years from Yamaha and the current thought is buy sleds from Cat! All because they can't build a rider forward chassis! Why does that just make you go Whaaaat the he!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah.. my hopes are that this agreement that Cat talks about and future with Yamaha is in the engine department only, I hoping, maybe dreaming that Yamaha has something up their sleeve in a all new rider forward chassis designed and developed at their new headquarters and built in Japan so they do not have to share with Textron and bring the pride back to the true blue, Yamaha can do this but what I have been seeing is Yamaha hiding behind Cats snow flap, Cat is even now speaking for Yamaha in the interview Snowtrax had with Cat, the sidewinder - Thunder Cat is all pure Yamaha engine sled, you could put that engine in a old Massey Ferguson sled and be the first at the end of the lake.

 

[TPAY243]

20/80 that old Massey Ferguson is the delta box, I guess I'm not getting the picture here you guys that are still running the apex what is it that you want. What if the four popper find its way into the pro cross would that make it better. You keep saying something from japan what do you think they have up their sleeve. You don't like the pro cross which is basically the same as Polaris and ski doo, maybe they need to re invent the wheel. I will agree the sleds that are built in japan have better fit and finish and electronics are the best but they have failed miserably trying to make a rider forward sled. I understand that not everybody wants rider forward and if that is the case what improvement's to the delta box that they have not already done would you like. I still feel that the new Yamaha and cat cross breed is a step in the right direction and will keep going that way in the future and all of you that are in love with the delta box are probably not going to be happy. Everybody wants something new or different from yamaha they come out with something new and all everybody does is complain its not 100% Yamaha. Is it really that big of deal my 2014 viper has had a lot less problems then my 2006 apex did. Let Yamaha build the motors and leave the rest up to the people that can build a sled with a decent front and rear suspension

 

[CaptCaper]

I don't know what Yamaha might or might not do but dealers her in Northern NH have stopped carrying Yamaha snowmachines.. and I just saw the FB page for NH's famous Snodeo at SDR's club house.. the said Yamaha isn't coming to the demo/Snodeo here is the quote.

"Yamaha "repositioning regional assets." Cat & Ski Doo should be bringing nice fleet of demos though. Hope you'll still come up. Thanks, the SnoDeo"

Repositioning is big word..

 

[20/80]

20/80 that old Massey Ferguson is the delta box, I guess I'm not getting the picture here you guys that are still running the apex what is it that you want. What if the four popper find its way into the pro cross would that make it better. You keep saying something from japan what do you think they have up their sleeve. You don't like the pro cross which is basically the same as Polaris and ski doo, maybe they need to re invent the wheel. I will agree the sleds that are built in japan have better fit and finish and electronics are the best but they have failed miserably trying to make a rider forward sled. I understand that not everybody wants rider forward and if that is the case what improvement's to the delta box that they have not already done would you like. I still feel that the new Yamaha and cat cross breed is a step in the right direction and will keep going that way in the future and all of you that are in love with the delta box are probably not going to be happy. Everybody wants something new or different from yamaha they come out with something new and all everybody does is complain its not 100% Yamaha. Is it really that big of deal my 2014 viper has had a lot less problems then my 2006 apex did. Let Yamaha build the motors and leave the rest up to the people that can build a sled with a decent front and rear suspension

Well.... what would be wrong with Yamaha standing on their own two feet and build their own rider forward chassis, they have a all new engineering team at their new head quarters put them to work!! I for one think the delta box is still a great skid and better built than the pro cross skid and a new seat from WRP puts you in the rider forward position on the delta box that a lot of sledders prefer, the Apex motor, vector/nitro and the phazer motors are bullet proof, if you are having less problems with your 2014 viper than a 2006 Apex which I will remind you is a 8 year spread in tech than you must have one good working one than, you should compare it to a 2014 apex or vector to be on the same page.... maybe your riding the Massey Ferguson!!!! lol

 

[TPAY243]

20/80 Nothing wrong with Yamaha standing on there own two feet but they been unable to do that. The only time they have been competitive in the suspension department is when they basically copied Polaris in 1997 with the pro action and that all went away when they released the delta box. I totally agree with you in the motor department. I was not comparing tech between the viper and apex only that they were both a first year model release. What is the difference between the 14 apex and the 11 that I owned. I think you answered my question the 2020 apex will have a new seat, signal shot rear skid, and the new front shocks that are tied together and oh ya bold new graphics. We can beat this topic to death but I just think the delta box has run its coarse and with or without a new seat it does not compete with other sleds in the present. I will say this again if the trails are flat and groomed delta box works good but when they get rough you have to slow down or beat your self to death trying to keep up. I'm not sure how you ride but if someone says they can keep up with a Cat, Polaris, or a Doo on rough trails I want what there smoking. I have been on the losing side of this battle with all of my apexs I took a gamble on the viper because I never was a big Cat fan but in all honesty I'm glad I did.

 

[RobX-1]

If you look at my signature, you can see the sleds I own; specifically the '03 RX-1, '08 Apex and now '18 Apex. Guess what, I rode those sleds when my ridding buddies had their new Ski Doo's. As they continued to upgrade their sleds, I continued to ride the RX-1 for 8 years until I purchased the '08 (bought used in '11). I then rode the Apex another 7 years as they continued to upgrade their Ski Doo's. In that time span, I never once had any problems keeping up with them in the tight and twisties and when the trails were trashed. Each to their own I guess but if you want what I'm smoking, all I can offer you is a good cigar as I don't smoke other than the occasional maduro cigar

 

[20/80]

20/80 Nothing wrong with Yamaha standing on there own two feet but they been unable to do that. The only time they have been competitive in the suspension department is when they basically copied Polaris in 1997 with the pro action and that all went away when they released the delta box. I totally agree with you in the motor department. I was not comparing tech between the viper and apex only that they were both a first year model release. What is the difference between the 14 apex and the 11 that I owned. I think you answered my question the 2020 apex will have a new seat, signal shot rear skid, and the new front shocks that are tied together and oh ya bold new graphics. We can beat this topic to death but I just think the delta box has run its coarse and with or without a new seat it does not compete with other sleds in the present. I will say this again if the trails are flat and groomed delta box works good but when they get rough you have to slow down or beat your self to death trying to keep up. I'm not sure how you ride but if someone says they can keep up with a Cat, Polaris, or a Doo on rough trails I want what there smoking. I have been on the losing side of this battle with all of my apexs I took a gamble on the viper because I never was a big Cat fan but in all honesty I'm glad I did.

Hmm....Not to beat this to death but where do you think Cat got the blue prints to build the pro cross chassis from??? they stole it from Ski-Doo they just made some minor changes so they wouldn't get sued, Cat, Doo and PoPo are siting basically on the same chassis, PoPo moved ahead with the rush Chassis and Doo moved ahead with gen 4 platform, Cat basically is sitting on the old rev chassis, being very very generous I give Cat sleds and the procross 8 years before history repeats itself and Textron gives Cat the boot, and they will still be sitting on the old rev chassis, the 2018 Apex delta box will still be running smoothly in 8 years with its owner smiling.

 

[HighSpeedLowDrag]

20/80 Nothing wrong with Yamaha standing on there own two feet but they been unable to do that. The only time they have been competitive in the suspension department is when they basically copied Polaris in 1997 with the pro action and that all went away when they released the delta box. I totally agree with you in the motor department. I was not comparing tech between the viper and apex only that they were both a first year model release. What is the difference between the 14 apex and the 11 that I owned. I think you answered my question the 2020 apex will have a new seat, signal shot rear skid, and the new front shocks that are tied together and oh ya bold new graphics. We can beat this topic to death but I just think the delta box has run its coarse and with or without a new seat it does not compete with other sleds in the present. I will say this again if the trails are flat and groomed delta box works good but when they get rough you have to slow down or beat your self to death trying to keep up. I'm not sure how you ride but if someone says they can keep up with a Cat, Polaris, or a Doo on rough trails I want what there smoking. I have been on the losing side of this battle with all of my apexs I took a gamble on the viper because I never was a big Cat fan but in all honesty I'm glad I did.

Are you employed by Snow Goer?

 

[rtx moose]

Are you employed by Snow Goer?

LOL!!!