Secondary clutch spring.

[ROCKERDAN]

i have the tpi orange in my turbo viper wrapped at 3-2 with a 40/46 reverse helix i did notice hot belt do you think 3-1 would help it with the heat

absolutely

 

[**sj**]

what I take out of Daltons testing is the .100 smaller diameter and the one less coil....not to mention the more progressive nature of the spring..continuing to gain on the others in the comparison the more it twists...


there are some key take aways here ...

 

[ClutchMaster]

Just tested the TPI orange secondary spring for those who have asked. We seem to be asked to compare this spring and it seems to be based from comments on this site. There seems to be a lot of speculation as to the pressure and torsion comparisons two aftermarket springs, and comparisons to the stock sidewinder secondary yellow spring. We were asked to compare the 3 springs many times. So this is it and thats all it is. It is numbers, not guesses or assumptions or anything like that. It does not matter to me if some other tests are done exactly the same or compared in different methods....this is numbers compared the same way. Thats all we can offer. At least it is better than some of the hearsay.


the spring (TPI orange)
It is also made from 5.7 mm wire which is the same as the Dalton Black/Orange, it is however approx .100" smaller diameter overall on the spring than stock Yamaha springs or the Dalton springs we have here. It is also just slightly shorter and uses less coils of wire. The characteristics will be different.

The stock sidewinder spring is from 6mm wire, ..shorter...but more coils again to make the big wire act a little lighter for twist.
The stock sidewinder spring is substantially heavier spring than any previous Yamaha springs.....especially for TORSION value.

The spring tang location of the Dalton Black orange is different than the yellow stock sidewinder spring ( you can see on the chart on our website the number of coils to indicate this). The Dalton Black /orange IS however, a stock Yamaha configuration and not some Arctic cat tang location like some have speculated. It is the same tang orientation as the Yamaha silver, etc. Yamaha use a few different variations of tang location...they use like the pink and yellow....they use like the White , ...they use like the Silver V max 4 spring). All of those tang locations are designed to be used in the standard method on spring tab location.

Compression:
The TPI Orange spring is 93 mm long, which is slightly shorter than a Dalton Black with orange stripe. ..it is, however, made with less coils, so that makes it progressively stronger as it compresses. Because of its slightly shorter length it is slightly less compression at the first compared load test height interval, ...but as it compresses, at the end of the stroke it is a few kg.s heavier ( approx 10 lbs stronger). When fully compressed it is slightly heavier load than the Dalton B/O or the stock spring.

Torsion (Twist) force:
It is the same size wire but less coils than the Dalton Black/orange, which will make the torsional value higher...and get higher progressively as it twists more. The more you twist it, the more it starts to surpass the others for required force to twist.
When the torsion of the Orange TPI spring is checked to 70 degrees of rotation on the same appliance as the others ( some of those were retested as well to confirm), it ends up at 13 kg.( approx 10 lbs more twist force than the Dalton Black/Orange),...and 2kg ( approx 5 lbs) more torsion force than the stock yellow sidewinder spring. A torsion pressure difference it way more noticed than a few lbs of compression difference. When twisting all of the springs at the same time the TPI orange one is very noticed that it is distinctly more torsion force, as some have noted. Some may decide to use less twist setting to suit their needs. Some on this forum have stated it works well ot lower torsion setting than stock and that may be the case.

The Dalton Black/orange is often set at 60 or 70 degrees. It seems that many of the tuned up ones seem to claim to use it at 6-1 setting. 6-1 setting on that Black orange is approx the same "torsional" force as the stock yellow one at 3-3. In my opinion 3-3 or 6-1 is plenty of twist, since some claim they have good results using B/O at 3-3 and adjusting their weights to suit, but probably more stockers and lower hp tunes.

The TPI orange is ( as related to the Dalton comparison chart):
-torsion 13 kg
-number of coils 4.5
-wire dia. 5.7mm
-free length 93mm
-compression loas @64mm= 29 kg
-compression load @49mm= 41kg
-compression load @ 39mm= 55kg



I'm going to copy a link to the chart from the Dalton website that shows the original test of the various Yamaha and Dalton clutch springs...the wire diameter...the number of coils, the load pressure at different intervals, and the torsion values**along with the corresponding notes that explain them.

http://www.daltonindustries.com/product_detail.php?product_id=293



There you have it.

Thanks Helix for this very useful info

 

[jeffgilbert]

absolutely

Thanks Dan!

 

[helix]

Thanks Helix for this very useful info

You are welcome.

tuning info needs to be specific to have good data to test from so that is the reason we did it.

Secondary spring is like helix..."whats the best one"...loaded question. There are a LOT of variables in all of that stuff. ...boost...type of tune...gearing...track...different stuff in the primary or secondary for other tuning components...you cant omit any of it and say that one thing is better than another, it is always 100 percent case specific. ....the ones here that are expreinced, you know.

Things like forums are good things...but one of the side effects and real problems that sometimes end up costing unnecessary money and time is that people thing " ok...use that spring...or that helix".....and if ALL other variables are not exactly the same on both clutches, gearing , boost package...everything....then it is not relevant to you.

I watch and listen to it every day.

Someone will say they want a certain helix or spring....they are already maybe low on rpm with the stock 35....but they are ordering one that is more angle because the internet guy said to....they lose 400 rpm and a bunch more speed and call and order something else based on what someone else on the internet used....

I'm just saying ( again), there are a lot of variables. Im only suggesting to try to make sure all is the same, and that if all of those variables are not the same then it may not even apply to you.

Myself, I have spent considerable time over the years testing, and do it all year long on many off road vehicle that we make packages for. We usually spend weeks...then scap things, make new prototype stuff and do it again...sometimes frustrating. I also try to never let myself get any tunnel vision based on what I found on some other application I ended up with before...test...adjust, ...the previous test give suggestions to test next. I never care what anyone else is doing or has done on the vehicle, I dont care what dynos say...I let the field testing prove what RPM it likes...I try to achieve that in many different ways of clutching and prove efficiency. If you have not done that...what have you done and what do you really have?..what do you know for sure is best?. You may be assuming it is best because you are running some rpm someone said to run?...you think its good because it is the fastest thing you ever drove anyway ?
I realize that thorough testing is not for everyone, if its not for you, then you buy a complete clutch kit from someone who has done your exact application....if it doesnt work for you then you call that guy every Monday, that how it goes sometimes but it means you have a complete kit. Sometimes on new models like this there are not a lot of complete kits out there and I realize sharing info helps....but in reality it always ends up the same way if you are not very careful...in the big picture it may be cheaper and it is usually best to prove to yourself . Just my opinion after watching it for years.


Anyway, the market asked for some spring options for the vehicle, and there are now a couple options here that I'm sure will work for different applications of this vehicle and the comparison we did was for the info of those tuning clutches. It is never that one helix or spring or whatever is "better"...it is tuning. I hope the comparisons here help.

 

[Never Satisfied]

I have tested both springs. The Orange Thunder Products in Secondary I had very hot clutches and belt. 3/3 and 3/2. The Orange/Black Dalton spring, I had hot clutch's and belt @ 3/3. Not as hot but hot.

I was running Heavy Hitters for both tests. Stock tune, stock 35 Helix on TP orange, 33/37 on Dalton black/orange. I removed Heavy Hitters and replaced with Stock weights and clutch's are only luke warm.

I have more testing to do but I am inclined to think that the aggressive profile of the Heavy Hitter weights need to be matched up with a steeper angle Helix.

I used Heavy Hitter weights in my Viper and they performed very well. No heat issues whatsoever. I am not sure of the angle of the stock Viper Helix but I believe it is much steeper than the 35 degree Sidewinder Helix.View attachment 137173

I would run those flatter profile weights. If you have belt heat it's likely the primary when running those curved weights with a heavy spring. I like big weights and big springs, always faster.

 

[chaleurphantom]

I would run those flatter profile weights. If you have belt heat it's likely the primary when running those curved weights with a heavy spring. I like big weights and big springs, always faster.

I think you are right. I am going to give them a good run as soon as I can.

I wish someone would give some insight into the aggressive curve of the Heavy Hitters in relation to the shallow angle of the stock helix. Am I totally off in my theory or does the ramp rate of the Primary clutch weights have to match up to the ramp rate of the Helix?

 

[jlinstruth]

Reading most of these clutching posts, I would suggest reading AEENS clutching hand book, Primary weight and spring is used to utilize motor torque curve and rpms, Secondary helix and spring used to control upshift and backshift= power to ground. Changing ramp profile has to be matched with secondary spring pressure and helix to control shift out and belt squeeze which keeps belt from slipping. Reading a lot of posts on excessive heat, to much belt squeeze or not enough create this issue, usually can be identified by black on one clutch or other. Sometimes the more aggressive weight can cause excessive heat due to weight being in wrong area on ramp.

 

[chaleurphantom]

Reading most of these clutching posts, I would suggest reading AEENS clutching hand book, Primary weight and spring is used to utilize motor torque curve and rpms, Secondary helix and spring used to control upshift and backshift= power to ground. Changing ramp profile has to be matched with secondary spring pressure and helix to control shift out and belt squeeze which keeps belt from slipping. Reading a lot of posts on excessive heat, to much belt squeeze or not enough create this issue, usually can be identified by black on one clutch or other. Sometimes the more aggressive weight can cause excessive heat due to weight being in wrong area on ramp.

I have been looking around for a copy of that book. I can't seem to find one?

How does one identify heat build up from over-clamping or slippage? I simply can't believe how much cooler my clutch's are by simply changing ramp profile of the Primary weights.

 

[jlinstruth]

The hotter clutch is the one slipping, cheap heat gun from harbor freight.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

The hotter clutch is the one slipping, cheap heat gun from harbor freight.

Not always.....too much backpressure also causes heat.

If you mean between primary and secondary, the primary should always be warmer and you should never have slipping in secondary when setup correctly.

Clutching is all about walking that fine line

Dan

 

[jonlafon1]

Not always.....too much backpressure also causes heat.

If you mean between primary and secondary, the primary should always be warmer and you should never have slipping in secondary when setup correctly.

Clutching is all about walking that fine line

Dan

Concur 100% I really think these three roller secondary's are a bit different animal. And I feel having to much back pressure is very possible

 

[jlinstruth]

Too much back pressure is to much belt squeeze in secondary, hence heat

 

[jlinstruth]

Doo and poo been using roller secondaries for quite some time with great success, principles are all the same, lots of testing, no magic setups to be had. rider weight, power, terrain type, traction. all have great effect on the clutching.

 

[vodoo child]

Confused? I have to 33/35 helix and orange spring set in 3/3 with no tune and when I questioned this in the other thread they said leave it there.

A BIG X2!!!!!! Mine is box stock, stock tune, TP's lubricated washers in primary, stock primary spring, stock weights. TP's 33/35 billet helix, TP's orange secondary spring set at 3/3, TP's secondary rollers, factory 8jp belt and factory offset. I put 200 miles on this setup two weeks ago in poor conditions at various speeds. Engagement was good and smooth, back shift was excellent. I ""DID NOT"" check clutch or belt temps at all, but when I went over the sled the following day at home very little to no belt dust and ""NO"" rubber build up on the clutchs. So I'm assuming the temps were fine. My buddy and I are not agressive trail riders, but big mile riders. In a previous post Nos-Pro told me I'd be fine with this setup. I'm leaving for a week of riding in Maine on Feb.9th and I hate fiddling with sleds while on vacation. I read this complete post twice and I'm totally confused if I should tweak my setup or leave it be? Any information would be great. I'm a clutch newbie so keep it simple. Thanks!