Secondary clutch spring.

[fourload]

I was fine at 60 also but I went to 50 and it was good also, just a little better upshift . Now I am at 40 and it seems upshift quicker at part throttle trail cruising and still downshifts good. For a high mileage guy I think fuel mileage would be better due to the lower cruising RPM. I am leaving mine at 40 for now. I like what I felt last time I was out. The spring is way easier to install at 40 also.

 

[XP123]

A BIG X2!!!!!! Mine is box stock, stock tune, TP's lubricated washers in primary, stock primary spring, stock weights. TP's 33/35 billet helix, TP's orange secondary spring set at 3/3, TP's secondary rollers, factory 8jp belt and factory offset. I put 200 miles on this setup two weeks ago in poor conditions at various speeds. Engagement was good and smooth, back shift was excellent. I ""DID NOT"" check clutch or belt temps at all, but when I went over the sled the following day at home very little to no belt dust and ""NO"" rubber build up on the clutchs. So I'm assuming the temps were fine. My buddy and I are not agressive trail riders, but big mile riders. In a previous post Nos-Pro told me I'd be fine with this setup. I'm leaving for a week of riding in Maine on Feb.9th and I hate fiddling with sleds while on vacation. I read this complete post twice and I'm totally confused if I should tweak my setup or leave it be? Any information would be great. I'm a clutch newbie so keep it simple. Thanks!

Makes my head want to explode for sure. Too many contradicting reports.

 

[XP123]

Doo and poo been using roller secondaries for quite some time with great success, principles are all the same, lots of testing, no magic setups to be had. rider weight, power, terrain type, traction. all have great effect on the clutching.

Cat had roller secondaries before anybody and they were very simple in design and used the same helix as what they had before the rollers. They worked very well also.

 

[XP123]

Not always.....too much backpressure also causes heat.

If you mean between primary and secondary, the primary should always be warmer and you should never have slipping in secondary when setup correctly.

Clutching is all about walking that fine line

Dan

I think the fine line comment is spot on Dan. In many cases with all these reports is there may be one or two variables that move that line and have very different results. Unfortunately I think we all need to test these components on our own sleds and see for ourselves what the results are.

I had the Big Venom kit on my sled with the Heavy Hitter weights along with the Dalton 33/35 and TP Orange spring. Like reported the spring was a bear to install. The performance was good with much more engine braking and much quicker downshifting. The mid range RPM's seemed higher as I felt the helix and spring combo made it upshift slower but down shift quicker. This is where I think the added heat comes from as I noticed hot clutches and belt even though not a lot of belt dust or wear.

I then tried the Dalton Black/orange spring and went back to the stock 35 helix. Since the big venom kit was designed around the stock secondary set up and the black/orange spring I was told was very close to the stock spring without the coil bind and a little more side pressure I figured it should work fine. My results showed a sled that upshifted much quicker and pulled harder in the mid range. I also noticed much cooler clutches and belt. The other very noticeable thing was total lack of engine braking. I personally don't care about EB but I do like the quicker upshifting because these sleds have so much power that they will have no issue pulling it. That's why I think guys with tunes will be able to pull much steeper helix's than what many are running. I really don't think even the stock Winders need the 33/35 for what many claim a little more low end rpm.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Makes my head want to explode for sure. Too many contradicting reports.

Not really as far as backpressure goes...

NOONE IMO should be set higher then 40 with TP Orange.

 

[ClutchMaster]

I would run those flatter profile weights. If you have belt heat it's likely the primary when running those curved weights with a heavy spring. I like big weights and big springs, always faster.

Yea that’s great advice. Lol
Always faster eh? I’ve got aggressive weights and a huge primary spring......would you like to race? Absolutely zero theory here......... just having an opinion because your entitled to one?

He has plenty of belt Force with those HH weights to prevent slippage. Here’s a clue, his heat went down when he put in a different secondary spring. Heat in the clutches is directly related to clutching efficiency.

Too tight inefficient, too loose inefficient, just right and track horsepower will be 5~10% higher. At 200 horsepower that’s a HUGE advantage equaling up to 20hp gain. This is especially true at full shift out.

Sorry if you take this post as being rude but if your going to give advice you really need to back it up as to why your suggesting it.

 

[chaleurphantom]

Yea that’s great advice. Lol
Always faster eh? I’ve got aggressive weights and a huge primary spring......would you like to race? Absolutely zero theory here......... just having an opinion because your entitled to one?

He has plenty of belt Force with those HH weights to prevent slippage. Here’s a clue, his heat went down when he put in a different secondary spring. Heat in the clutches is directly related to clutching efficiency.

Too tight inefficient, too loose inefficient, just right and track horsepower will be 5~10% higher. At 200 horsepower that’s a HUGE advantage equaling up to 20hp gain. This is especially true at full shift out.

Sorry if you take this post as being rude but if your going to give advice you really need to back it up as to why your suggesting it.

If you are talking about my issue with heat; you are wrong. I tried the Dalton Orange/Black at 3-3 with HH weights. Still hot. I changed out weights to stock and clutch's are cool. You can't argue with results but I am sure you will find a way!

I was already on the same thought of a flatter weight profile with the stock angle helix. Flatter weight and a flatter helix angle make sense to me.

I am sorry that everyone isn't as knowledgeable as you think you are but we do the best we can with what we have to work with.

 

[Never Satisfied]

Yes it was rude considering I just read through this and you have contributed absolutely zero to the thread. Since you are the Clutchmaster I'd expect you to have this figured out for everyone.

I will clarify so you can learn something - the flatter profile weights provide better belt grip. Cat and Yamaha are shipping out the same unit but with different set ups by the looks of things. The Cat weights are more aggressive, basically the same profile they have always used. Me, and the good tuners I work with, like the flatter weights in these sleds. With the extra belt grip they provide they can overpower the secondary, especially as you get the belt deeper in the sheave. We have tried all sorts of settings and found it takes a heavier duty spring to keep the secondary from slipping at high speeds. We are also experimenting with belts, I will try the XS827 this weekend to see how it compares to the others and what changes may be necessary. I run the stock Cat Primary spring

I have no belt issues and can easily run into the upper 120's on the 240 setting. As general statement I am not a top end guy that likes to hold my sled open for a mile. Not that I am afraid of blowing it up, more about other bad stuff that happens. So my set up may be more drag oriented but that's the way I like it. I work on the primary to get it shifting and grabbing the belt then fine tune the secondary. A couple degrees on a helix here or there is fine tuning only, it will not fix bigger issues. Back when I raced 120 HP 600's everything had a bigger effect, on these heavy 250+ HP sleds minute changes don't show evidence as easily.

 

[ClutchMaster]

If you are talking about my issue with heat; you are wrong. I tried the Dalton Orange/Black at 3-3 with HH weights. Still hot. I changed out weights to stock and clutch's are cool. You can't argue with results but I am sure you will find a way!

I was already on the same thought of a flatter weight profile with the stock angle helix. Flatter weight and a flatter helix angle make sense to me.

I am sorry that everyone isn't as knowledgeable as you think you are but we do the best we can with what we have to work with.

Sorry for the free advice that screwed you all up, trust me it won’t happen again. BTW your a POS

 

[ClutchMaster]

Yes it was rude considering I just read through this and you have contributed absolutely zero to the thread. Since you are the Clutchmaster I'd expect you to have this figured out for everyone.

I will clarify so you can learn something - the flatter profile weights provide better belt grip. Cat and Yamaha are shipping out the same unit but with different set ups by the looks of things. The Cat weights are more aggressive, basically the same profile they have always used. Me, and the good tuners I work with, like the flatter weights in these sleds. With the extra belt grip they provide they can overpower the secondary, especially as you get the belt deeper in the sheave. We have tried all sorts of settings and found it takes a heavier duty spring to keep the secondary from slipping at high speeds. We are also experimenting with belts, I will try the XS827 this weekend to see how it compares to the others and what changes may be necessary. I run the stock Cat Primary spring

I have no belt issues and can easily run into the upper 120's on the 240 setting. As general statement I am not a top end guy that likes to hold my sled open for a mile. Not that I am afraid of blowing it up, more about other bad stuff that happens. So my set up may be more drag oriented but that's the way I like it. I work on the primary to get it shifting and grabbing the belt then fine tune the secondary. A couple degrees on a helix here or there is fine tuning only, it will not fix bigger issues. Back when I raced 120 HP 600's everything had a bigger effect, on these heavy 250+ HP sleds minute changes don't show evidence as easily.

Have contributed zero in this thread yes.
Other threads I beg to differ.
Who was the guy who pointed out the TP orange secondary spring was to stiff causing clutches to over heat?
Two days later they updated the wrap settings.
I have said repeatedly in other threads that this secondary is set way to tight and offered advice as simple as a $20 spring change that nobody has tried because your all experts that need advice?
The one guy who actually tried my advice was happy to report it worked! Wholly crap!
I do not have a Winder to actually test right now so this frustrating give advice, poster does nothing is becoming a sore spot for me.
Also people posting generalities like curved weights are always slower than heavy flat ones! WOW really! That is seriously ignorant.
Here’s a news flash ...... you need to actually change something for progress to be made.

 

[vodoo child]

I was fine at 60 also but I went to 50 and it was good also, just a little better upshift . Now I am at 40 and it seems upshift quicker at part throttle trail cruising and still downshifts good. For a high mileage guy I think fuel mileage would be better due to the lower cruising RPM. I am leaving mine at 40 for now. I like what I felt last time I was out. The spring is way easier to install at 40 also.

I got 15.2 mpg with the 33/35 orange 3/3 setup. On that note, what's the suggestion on mine? Unwind the the TP orange spring? And if so, what #s on the secondary sheave and helix to get proper degrees. Also leave the 33/35 helix in, or go back to the stock secondary helix and what #s with the TP orange spring? OR go back to all stock with the TP secondary rollers? HELP, MY HEAD HURTS!!!!!

 

[ClutchMaster]

I will clarify so you can learn something

Gotta love this^
When I clutch Matt’s winder I’m gonna have him make a lake run then video the temperature gun on his clutches. If I can’t keep them below 100 degrees Fahrenheit I’ll eat crow.

Think you can do the same Professor?

 

[XP123]

First off I would like to thank everybody for their help and opinions (even the ones who cost me money) I don't think we need to take jabs at each other because I'm sure we are all here to share info and help each other. I hope guys don't take these exchanges personally and if you do then step back and take a deep breath. I'm always open for some good advice since I know there are more experienced tuners out there and now that I'm old I hate testing crap on my sleds.

 

[Never Satisfied]

To be honest I really don't care what you do.

 

[stevewithOCD]

I have same stock set up & should have some numbers Saturday & Sunday. 3&1 on helix now, Fluke temp gun, 8DN & 8JP belts ready for testing. If i'm not happy, then Sunday i will be back to stock with new test results. I'll be in Maine all week, but Monday i'm back packing so by Sunday night, i need my best results.
Stay tuned VoodooChile, answers are 'a comin'!