Steve verses the 8jP

[stevewithOCD]

I'm starting a new thread on some SERIOUS clutch testing/abuse this weekend.
GREAT NEWS.............and not so good news.

LET's BACK UP:

I had 6300 miles on my 'Winder & blew belts every 900 miles with one at 500.
I tested last year with weights, springs, helix's, rollers & belts.
Last year i went back to stock except Dalton B/O rear spring & got my best results.
1. c to c=62.5mm
2. parallel within .5 mm end to end
3. 911 cover with glide washers
4. TP rear rollers
5. stock front spring (new since my first one broke)
6 offset was 60.5mm

THIS YEAR CHANGES:

1. Re-torqued my stub shaft & primary (this changed my offset BTW)
2. I used Hurricane tool that put me at 57.5mm. The tool wanted me at 57. (this is different per sled)
3. TD Powertrail with Stock Muffler (this is important for some aspects of this post)
4. Dalton weights with 72 grams
5. New TP primary 14.8 rollers
6. BOP secondary adjuster with 1mm of float & belt even with top of clutch
7. Dalton NEW secondary B/O spring set at 80 degrees (per Dalton & TD)
8. Stock helix
9. LOTS of vents to help cool clutches

HERE"S MY NEW YEARS STORY:

In "the County" in Maine with surprisingly great riding & testing.
--First day was normal riding & met FLEECER for most of the 240 mile day.
FLEECER is a Mainer Mad Man with tons of power that blew TONS of belts last year but is having great success this year. His own venting system seems to be helping along with the Hurricane tool. He is also very knowledgable, but is very quiet on this site. He needs to "talk" more. Hopefully i rubbed off on him a bit.
--Second day i met WINTERWOLF for railroad bed riding. He likes the beds. In fact when he says he's going to bed, i think he sleeps on route 105!
Both of us used the Hurricane tool & he is SM modded also.
After very long pulls both our clutches were luke warm. GREAT SIGN! If you can hold your clutches after 30 minutes or more of 100 to 120 mph, you are headed in the right direction.
I forgot my temp gun so this was best i could do. We were actually a tad cooler then the completely stock 'Winder.

TODAY: The Good News

I decided to get very aggressive for the TY members' benefit. Lost my friends, but i'm making new ones anyways.
After banging the belt in the corner to corner trails, 3 lake pulls, more corner bangin', big sweepers where i lost my friends again then a long pull on Long Lake at 124 mph speedo pulling 8950 rpm's until lunch.

Belt was still level with top of clutch & still just warm. Pulling 9000 rpm's under ALL conditions ALL day.
So the GOOD NEWS is, i'm convinced my clutches are HAPPY!
Well at least for 550 miles, BUT just like a woman, their moods change.
While sniffing Mad Dog FLEECER's #*$&@ coming out of a corner on a straightaway my rev limiter starting spittin' & burpin'
BLEW the secondary rollers out!
GONE!
They did have over 6000 miles on them & i was violent with them last year during testing. Maybe i need to change them every year with my primary rollers.

BUT THE BELT IS STILL GOOD!
I don't believe this has anything to do with any of the changes. If i blow them again then something is wrong.
I will re-group at home with new rollers & use the same belt until over 1000 miles or it breaks.
At that point i will have temp data & will compare it to the Carbon belt i plan on using next.
Then same again with XS belt.

P.S: I am doing all this for the good of others.......................................................OK that's a lie, but i think Yamaha should hire me to test their clutches.

 

[theewarrior]

I'm starting a new thread on some SERIOUS clutch testing/abuse this weekend.
GREAT NEWS.............and not so good news.

LET's BACK UP:

I had 6300 miles on my 'Winder & blew belts every 900 miles with one at 500.
I tested last year with weights, springs, helix's, rollers & belts.
Last year i went back to stock except Dalton B/O rear spring & got my best results.
1. c to c=62.5mm
2. parallel within .5 mm end to end
3. 911 cover with glide washers
4. TP rear rollers
5. stock front spring (new since my first one broke)

THIS YEAR CHANGES:

1. Re-torqued my stub shaft & primary (this changed my offset BTW)
2. I used Hurricane tool that put me at 57.5mm. The tool wanted me at 57. (this is different per sled)
3. TD Powertrail with Stock Muffler (this is important for some aspects of this post)
4. Dalton weights with 72 grams
5. New TP primary 14.8 rollers
6. BOP secondary adjuster with 1mm of float & belt even with top of clutch
7. Dalton NEW secondary B/O spring set at 80 degrees (per Dalton & TD)
8. Stock helix
9. LOTS of vents to help cool clutches

HERE"S MY NEW YEARS STORY:

In "the County" in Maine with surprisingly great riding & testing.
--First day was normal riding & met FLEECER for most of the 240 mile day.
FLEECER is a Mainer Mad Man with tons of power that blew TONS of belts last year but is having great success this year. His own venting system seems to be helping along with the Hurricane tool. He is also very knowledgable, but is very quiet on this site. He needs to "talk" more. Hopefully i rubbed off on him a bit.
--Second day i met WINTERWOLF for railroad bed riding.
Both of us used the Hurricane tool & he is SM modded also.
After very long pulls both our clutches were luke warm. GREAT SIGN! If you can hold your clutches after 30 minutes or more of 100 to 120 mph, you are headed in the right direction.
I forgot my temp gun so this was best i could do. We were actually a tad cooler then the completely stock 'Winder.

TODAY: The Good News

I decided to get very aggressive for the TY members' benefit. Lost my friends, but i'm making new ones anyways.
After banging the belt in the corner to corner trails, 3 lake pulls, more corner bangin', big sweepers where i lost my friends again then a long pull on Long Lake at 124 mph speedo pulling 8950 rpm's until lunch.

Belt was still level with top of clutch & still just warm. Pulling 9000 rpm's under ALL conditions ALL day.
So the GOOD NEWS is, i'm convinced my clutches are HAPPY!
Well at least for 550 miles, BUT just like a woman, their moods change.
While sniffing Mad Dog FLEECER's #*$&@ coming out of a corner on a straightaway my rev limiter starting spittin' & burpin'
BLEW the secondary rollers out!
GONE!
They did have over 6000 miles on them & i was violent with them last year during testing. Maybe i need to change them every year with my primary rollers.

BUT THE BELT IS STILL GOOD!
I don't believe this has anything to do with any of the changes. If i blow them again then something is wrong.
I will re-group at home with new rollers & use the same belt until over 1000 miles or it breaks.
At that point i will have temp data & will compare it to the Carbon belt i plan on using next.
Then same again with XS belt.

P.S: I am doing all this for the good of others.......................................................OK that's a lie, but i think Yamaha should hire me to test their clutches.

Thank you for sharing ,I’m also wondering If you still have the stock primary spring in use

 

[stevewithOCD]

Yes stock primary spring. I was debating going to the Dalton closest to stock only because i broke one & just don't trust the OEM stuff.
I just didn't want too many variables or i'd never know what helped.
I think the Bronze is the closest.

The 3 things i did was

1. Hurricane tool
2. Vents
3. Removed the big float i had

 

[KnappAttack]

Nice stuff Steve.

What secondary rollers blew on you?

Glad the belt is still intact!

 

[stevewithOCD]

They were ThunderProducts with over 6000 miles on them. To their defense i went crazy on my belts last year during testing.
I have 3 new grey hairs to prove it! I'm up to 12 at the age 51. 2 more added today. LOL

 

[stevewithOCD]

Mike, i switched from the Hurricane tool post to my own because i believe removing my float may be just as important as the Hurricane tool.
At 550 miles i'm not completely positive, but my temps & rpm's were as consistent as ever.
Add in my "bang the belt" testing today where the clutches back-shifted & had to jump back to life immediately over & over then still pulled 9000 rpm's for long spots then "banged the belt" over & over again without rest is in my opinion.............moving forward.

P.S: I called MrKnapp Mike because i think his OCD therapy has him ready for it.
P.S 2: Only people that are smarter or make him laugh are allowed to call him Mike!

 

[stevewithOCD]

Later i will let CLUTCHMASTER chime in, but for now he's on Double Secret Probation so he needs to start slow.

 

[KnappAttack]

Mike, i switched from the Hurricane tool post to my own because i believe removing my float may be just as important as the Hurricane tool.
At 550 miles i'm not completely positive, but my temps & rpm's were as consistent as ever.
Add in my "bang the belt" testing today where the clutches back-shifted & had to jump back to life immediately over & over then still pulled 9000 rpm's for long spots then "banged the belt" over & over again without rest is in my opinion.............moving forward.

P.S: I called MrKnapp Mike because i think his OCD therapy has him ready for it.
P.S 2: Only people that are smarter or make him laugh are allowed to call him Mike!

Agree about zero float. It would appear you are off to a good start on keeping belts intact!
I'd like to see you try an 8DN and the EPI purple, or the Dalton Black/Lime cat spring too with a bit more helix than the straight 35. I think you'd like the backshift and response much better and have even cooler belts. Lets see what ClutchMaster has to say.

 

[stevewithOCD]

Let's talk shop now.
I'm not KNAPP or CLUTCHMASTER smart, but i'm a damn good wrench that can trouble-shoot well. It's actually what i do for a living.
The correct offset should help with temps, but most agree temps weren't the belt explosion problem.
High temps are a sign of ineffecient set-up, but the EXPLOSIONS are more indicative of the clutches not being in sync like a stuck sheave with coil bind or TOO much float that was in the wrong spot when my 200 hp decided to GO!
Like the CLUTCMASTER used to say (before he was in TY purgatory) the center can be off as long as compensated for with offset.
Parallel is extremely important, but very hard to adjust on these sleds. The wrong spring pressures or helix angles can make the clutches not "communicate", get hot, lose RPM's but again that usually means heat not EXPLOSIONS.

I think my float was partly to blame.

 

[stevewithOCD]

Agree about zero float. It would appear you are off to a good start on keeping belts intact!
I'd like to see you try an 8DN and the EPI purple, or the Dalton Black/Lime cat spring too with a bit more helix than the straight 35. I think you'd like the backshift and response much better and have even cooler belts. Lets see what ClutchMaster has to say.

Slow down Mike, you crazy tinkering SOB. LOL . You are going to confuse us common folk.
I wish we could spend a weekend on a lake with tools & hot dogs.
Tools for you, hot dogs for me.
I wanted to keep things similar & simple to "know" where progress was made. That's why i kept the stock front spring & helix. The only reason i went with Dalton's was to adjust for the tune.
Most guys are looking for simple adjustments to make their stock 'Winders get good belt life.
IF the Hurricane tool & remove float does that then we (mostly you) have helped the masses.

I do have a reverse helix i could tinker with, but man my rpm's are sooo spot on i'd hate to mess with it.
I am curious how the 3 belts will act.
8DN is longer & i lost about 2 to 3 mph on top, but just saying 8DN makes me happy.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Agree about zero float. It would appear you are off to a good start on keeping belts intact!
I'd like to see you try an 8DN and the EPI purple, or the Dalton Black/Lime cat spring too with a bit more helix than the straight 35. I think you'd like the backshift and response much better and have even cooler belts. Lets see what ClutchMaster has to say.

Thanks guys I’m flattered!
Yea I’m in agreement that the float isn’t consistent I’m not positive it actually moves as the clutches shift out under load. I talked with STM when I purchased my secondary and they seem to feel it’s not the thing to do. I have never floated any of my clutches so I really don’t think it helps.
Ok rewind to last year when our all time favorite clutch testing Guru, StevewithOCD was removing spring wind from his secondary and checking clutch temps. As he was removing wind he was also removing belt tension and the clutches got cooler. He lost a lot of throttle response in the process tho. Generally if you need to unwind your secondary spring down to 50 or 40 degrees of twist to get good belt temps your to shallow on you helix. Although he did have issues with slipping from the excessive offset at full shift out.
I’m positive the winder 35 stock helix is a little on the shallow side for a stock geared machine. Put a tune in it and it’s even worse. The sleds clutches need to open faster but the 35 helix resists that causing excessive belt tension. If you were to increase the helix angle at FULL THROTTLE those clutches will open faster even with a stiffer spring. springs tend to affect the lower power shifting forces more than the full throttle forces. Helix angle has more of a global effect, causing a clutch to shift faster or slower everywhere. It’s always been this way, when you make large power gains a helix change is best. Fine tuning is done with the spring.
Going steeper on the helix doesn’t always mean your response (backshift) has to suffer, you can get the response back with a stiffer secondary spring. What I’ve found is a steeper helix and stiffer spring tend to allow the clutches to open quicker and load the motor hard under full throttle, but tend to still be decent backshifting for trail riding at part throttle.
So I’m at 270hp and currently using the EPI purple (green a/c). The only real difference between my Secondary and the winder is the helix diameter. We know the angle will need to be less because of the Winder helix being larger it generates less side force. Mine is a 46/40
I’m really thinking someone needs to try this spring in a Winder clutch with a helix around 40~42 degrees 250hp or more.

PS1 - if your running lakes with huge gearing changes something around 38~39 degrees would be more appropriate. (Slow the shift)

PS2 - look at what weights you are running, the daltons are suited more for a straight angle helix, the Heavy Hitters are more used with a progressive helix, the STM’s will work with about anything because of the variety of weight placements.

PS3 - I’m sure a lot of guys will be testing many setups this year so don’t jump the gun, results will be pouring in soon!

PS4 - Thanks Steveo for an awsome OCD report, we need more like you around here!

 

[1nc 2000]

Sure is a good feeling to hammer the throttle and not RIP a belt in half.

 

[race24x]

Does anyone have a good video of how to eliminate the float? I have the BOP deflection adjustment tool, but in looking at your pics I think using the big washer on the outside allows for float. I also heard someone mention cutting the plug in the middle of the secondary down. I just want my belts to last 1000 miles and I would be pretty happy. So far 600 miles is about my replacement zone. However I have the Hurricane tool and I have their setup. I havent found a place to really get a good test, but corner to corner riding aggressive, now my clutches are only luke warm, like less than you would want your food to be.

 

[stevewithOCD]

Yes, you can cut the plug then adjust with washers on the inside if needed. Someone posted a pic here somewhere.
I used some Apex washers that go over the plug.
With the BOP adjuster knob loose, the clutch moves about 1mm just like my Apex.
Then i tightened the knob to set deflection.
With the other adjusters it was near impossible to adjust float so i switched to BOP.

If you haven't found the pic by the time i get home, i'll look it up.

 

[Hammer70]

I'm starting a new thread on some SERIOUS clutch testing/abuse this weekend.
GREAT NEWS.............and not so good news.

LET's BACK UP:

I had 6300 miles on my 'Winder & blew belts every 900 miles with one at 500.
I tested last year with weights, springs, helix's, rollers & belts.
Last year i went back to stock except Dalton B/O rear spring & got my best results.
1. c to c=62.5mm
2. parallel within .5 mm end to end
3. 911 cover with glide washers
4. TP rear rollers
5. stock front spring (new since my first one broke)
6 offset was 60.5mm

THIS YEAR CHANGES:

1. Re-torqued my stub shaft & primary (this changed my offset BTW)
2. I used Hurricane tool that put me at 57.5mm. The tool wanted me at 57. (this is different per sled)
3. TD Powertrail with Stock Muffler (this is important for some aspects of this post)
4. Dalton weights with 72 grams
5. New TP primary 14.8 rollers
6. BOP secondary adjuster with 1mm of float & belt even with top of clutch
7. Dalton NEW secondary B/O spring set at 80 degrees (per Dalton & TD)
8. Stock helix
9. LOTS of vents to help cool clutches

HERE"S MY NEW YEARS STORY:

In "the County" in Maine with surprisingly great riding & testing.
--First day was normal riding & met FLEECER for most of the 240 mile day.
FLEECER is a Mainer Mad Man with tons of power that blew TONS of belts last year but is having great success this year. His own venting system seems to be helping along with the Hurricane tool. He is also very knowledgable, but is very quiet on this site. He needs to "talk" more. Hopefully i rubbed off on him a bit.
--Second day i met WINTERWOLF for railroad bed riding. He likes the beds. In fact when he says he's going to bed, i think he sleeps on route 105!
Both of us used the Hurricane tool & he is SM modded also.
After very long pulls both our clutches were luke warm. GREAT SIGN! If you can hold your clutches after 30 minutes or more of 100 to 120 mph, you are headed in the right direction.
I forgot my temp gun so this was best i could do. We were actually a tad cooler then the completely stock 'Winder.

TODAY: The Good News

I decided to get very aggressive for the TY members' benefit. Lost my friends, but i'm making new ones anyways.
After banging the belt in the corner to corner trails, 3 lake pulls, more corner bangin', big sweepers where i lost my friends again then a long pull on Long Lake at 124 mph speedo pulling 8950 rpm's until lunch.

Belt was still level with top of clutch & still just warm. Pulling 9000 rpm's under ALL conditions ALL day.
So the GOOD NEWS is, i'm convinced my clutches are HAPPY!
Well at least for 550 miles, BUT just like a woman, their moods change.
While sniffing Mad Dog FLEECER's #*$&@ coming out of a corner on a straightaway my rev limiter starting spittin' & burpin'
BLEW the secondary rollers out!
GONE!
They did have over 6000 miles on them & i was violent with them last year during testing. Maybe i need to change them every year with my primary rollers.

BUT THE BELT IS STILL GOOD!
I don't believe this has anything to do with any of the changes. If i blow them again then something is wrong.
I will re-group at home with new rollers & use the same belt until over 1000 miles or it breaks.
At that point i will have temp data & will compare it to the Carbon belt i plan on using next.
Then same again with XS belt.

P.S: I am doing all this for the good of others.......................................................OK that's a lie, but i think Yamaha should hire me to test their clutches.

Awesome write up thanks for taking the time to provide all this info.

Thanks Pan