Thunder Products Orange Secondary spring **Update**

[ClutchMaster]

lets not overlook the state of tune ( power) and weights used....some being flat and others with more curve and throw heavier.. etc

That should be included in “entire setup” common sense items. I tried to get people to include things not usually discussed

 

[fatchance]

I bet rider weight has allot more to do with this than is being discussed. Way more load with the extra traction.

 

[**sj**]

I bet rider weight has allot more to do with this than is being discussed. Way more load with the extra traction.

absolutely...one guy like me is 180....next is 280....like riding with an extra rider...

Like clutchmaster said...entire setup including traction..ski drag / pressure...terrain and type of riding I.e. off trail or cruising or corner to corner burning..

 

[Stubbs]

I don't see the shape of the weight to be that much of an issue. The weight and location of the weight is the real factor correct? If you have the proper weight for the rpm's you want what will the curve of the weight effect?

The shape of the weight or “curvature” has EVERYTHING to do with how the weight shifts out! More “profile” or curvature = far more shifting force. The debate about aggressive profile/lighter flyweight mass vs. “flatter” profile/heavier mass flyweight and which setup is better will likely rage on for the rest of time. I’ve found each can be made to work very well with testing to find the right setup. All things being equal, a lighter mass flyweight with lots of profile will always backshift better than a heavier flat profile weight. That’s just physics, and physics doesn’t lie.

 

[chaleurphantom]

The shape of the weight or “curvature” has EVERYTHING to do with how the weight shifts out! More “profile” or curvature = far more shifting force. The debate about aggressive profile/lighter flyweight mass vs. “flatter” profile/heavier mass flyweight and which setup is better will likely rage on for the rest of time. I’ve found each can be made to work very well with testing to find the right setup. All things being equal, a lighter mass flyweight with lots of profile will always backshift better than a heavier flat profile weight. That’s just physics, and physics doesn’t lie.

My thoughts on this is that an aggressive curvature profile weight should be matched with a steeper Helix? I think this will allow Primary and Secondary to work together instead of against each other. I think the discrepancy, or working against each other, will result in heat and in-efficient clutching.

Of course this isn't the only cause of in-efficient clutching causing heat but I believe it is one factor.

Your thoughts?

 

[XP123]

The shape of the weight or “curvature” has EVERYTHING to do with how the weight shifts out! More “profile” or curvature = far more shifting force. The debate about aggressive profile/lighter flyweight mass vs. “flatter” profile/heavier mass flyweight and which setup is better will likely rage on for the rest of time. I’ve found each can be made to work very well with testing to find the right setup. All things being equal, a lighter mass flyweight with lots of profile will always backshift better than a heavier flat profile weight. That’s just physics, and physics doesn’t lie.

I guess my point was you can make either profile work by adjusting the weight and where it is just like you posted above. I can understand that fixed weights will be totally reliant on flyweight profile but I'm sure most here are talking adjustable weights where you can control shift and rpm's. I have had zero experience with these flat profile weights. All the clutch tuning I ever did in the past was with the aggressive type weights because all the Cats and Polaris's had those type.

Also to your point a lighter flat profile weight will backshift quicker than a heavy weight with lots of profile. So in either case all thing are not being equal.

 

[XP123]

My thoughts on this is that an aggressive curvature profile weight should be matched with a steeper Helix? I think this will allow Primary and Secondary to work together instead of against each other. I think the discrepancy, or working against each other, will result in heat and in-efficient clutching.

Of course this isn't the only cause of in-efficient clutching causing heat but I believe it is one factor.

Your thoughts?

I don't think the primary weight profile should have anything to do with the helix angle. I may be wrong on this because honestly I have been out of this clutch tuning stuff for many years and I'm learning things now that I didn't know before. Back in the day all the clutch weights on my Cats and Polaris's had the aggressive profile just like my Heavy Hitters and they were fixed weights. We used to grind the profile based on where we wanted more weight removed. We didn't have the option of adding weight like these adjustable ones.

 

[**sj**]

The shape of the weight or “curvature” has EVERYTHING to do with how the weight shifts out! More “profile” or curvature = far more shifting force. The debate about aggressive profile/lighter flyweight mass vs. “flatter” profile/heavier mass flyweight and which setup is better will likely rage on for the rest of time. I’ve found each can be made to work very well with testing to find the right setup. All things being equal, a lighter mass flyweight with lots of profile will always backshift better than a heavier flat profile weight. That’s just physics, and physics doesn’t lie.

thanks for saying this so I didnt have to : )

and yes....clutching is a formula....including the profile making a difference in helix choice/angles...

 

[XP123]

thanks for saying this so I didnt have to : )

and yes....clutching is a formula....including the profile making a difference in helix choice/angles...

The problem that has been going on here for now two seasons is nobody has figured out this formula successfully. We have a lot of smart guys on here who have claimed to be pretty darn good tuners who come up with stuff that just doesn't work. I will never claim to be an expert when it comes to clutching (far from it) but there is so much contradicting information being passed around and much of it makes no sense at all. I also have tried many of these so called can't miss springs/ helix's and weights only to find out they are not as advertised.

 

[ClutchMaster]

All depends on your riding style, weight, belt type, gearing etc.
Also small differences in clutch alignment are making one setup work in one sled but not so good in other sleds. Check all your alignment specs! Also check all your primary/secondary rollers.
These high horsepower sleds really need to be clutched individually.
Post your entire setup and include gearing changes, track length and lug height. Mountain or trail. Where your rpms are off the line and at top speed. Hot clutches or cool, include a picture of your primary sheave, belt your using, what problems your having, your expectations and anything else you can think of.
This all helps make a good decision on the direction you need to go.
Cheers, CM

Read this yet^^^^^^^^
Why do some Sleds have hot clutches or blow belts with the stock setup and others don’t?

 

[ClutchMaster]

The problem that has been going on here for now two seasons is nobody has figured out this formula successfully. We have a lot of smart guys on here who have claimed to be pretty darn good tuners who come up with stuff that just doesn't work. I will never claim to be an expert when it comes to clutching (far from it) but there is so much contradicting information being passed around and much of it makes no sense at all. I also have tried many of these so called can't miss springs/ helix's and weights only to find out they are not as advertised.

What happens when your on the high side of offset tolearance and Center to Center is on the low side?

All of these weights springs helixes need fine tuning for the application at hand, sorry it’s never going to be that simple.

 

[ClutchMaster]

I don't think the primary weight profile should have anything to do with the helix angle. I may be wrong on this because honestly I have been out of this clutch tuning stuff for many years and I'm learning things now that I didn't know before. Back in the day all the clutch weights on my Cats and Polaris's had the aggressive profile just like my Heavy Hitters and they were fixed weights. We used to grind the profile based on where we wanted more weight removed. We didn't have the option of adding weight like these adjustable ones.

Actually grinding the profile to loose weight will never work correctly.
You grind the back of the weight to make it lighter, you grind the profile to make it shift harder.
Even tho grinding profile losses some weight it will still shift much harder with the slightly lighter weight.

 

[XP123]

Actually grinding the profile to loose weight will never work correctly.
You grind the back of the weight to make it lighter, you grind the profile to make it shift harder.
Even tho grinding profile losses some weight it will still shift much harder with the slightly lighter weight.

Most of the messing around I did was with Cats back in the days when I cared about this stuff. I have boxes of weights and most of them have the same profile and none of them are flat. Yes we would grind the back of the weight to remove weight. Some of the weights I have are heavy loaded at the tip and others have notches in them to hold the engagement back (I really never liked them). Every sled will be different for sure and some fine tuning needs to be done but you shouldn't see the huge differences guys are reporting on these forums.

 

[STAIN]

I don't think the primary weight profile should have anything to do with the helix angle

I disagree. Remember when the primary roller is moving along the weight surface ( profile) what is the is the secondary button, or roller doing? It moving up and down the ramp. The helix angle and the weight profile are both doing a similar job, controlling shift rate. If they are controlling shift at different rates, they are fighting each other. If your primary weight profile doesn't match up very well with your helix angle, then you get the need for a multi-angle helix.

 

[XP123]

I disagree. Remember when the primary roller is moving along the weight surface ( profile) what is the is the secondary button, or roller doing? It moving up and down the ramp. The helix angle and the weight profile are both doing a similar job, controlling shift rate. If they are controlling shift at different rates, they are fighting each other. If your primary weight profile doesn't match up very well with your helix angle, then you get the need for a multi-angle helix.

I guess I'm living in the past. I always felt the secondary mostly controlled the shift RPM and the primary controlled engagement and engine rpm.