Food for thought. Another collaboration?

[thor452]

Why is that? Because triples aren’t modern?
Let me tell ya something, modern isn’t always better! “Modern” can may times mean “Garbage” or “Throw away”
Put a well mapped fuel injection system with knock protection and I’ll buy one.

Fact is the large bore twins are more inherent towards ring failures because of the larger ports. They also run more ignition timing due to the pistons larger size making it more susceptible to detonation.

I laugh at people who think just because it’s not New it must be antiquated. The late 90’s early 2000’s triples were the epitome of two stroke performance. They made the most horsepower for their size and were more reliable than the current twins.
All these advertising 165hp twin cylinder motors are BS! The old iron 800 triples, many rated under 150hp would kick the snot out of any of these newer sleds and they were heavier.
I have an old 600 formula 3 it will smoke any 600 twin made to date, I’ve raced them all.

Your a victim of marketing, having to be seen on only newer machines because it might embarrass you or reduce your self esteem?

Your statement is just that, a statement, no rhyme or reason?

WOW nothing like chasing a newbie out the door. the guy had an opinion that is okay. We allow that here. this is TY not doo talk. We welcome new people and there opinions till they get at least 100 posts then we can rip them a new butt hole because they will still probably stick around and help pay Tom's bills the keep the site alive. I may have missed something where he was being a jerk to you but I don't recall when or where that was. Just Sayin.

 

[biffdotorg]

I'm getting the feeling that nostalgia is getting in the way of common sense.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my SRX 700, but it had nowhere near the power of these new four stokes. Yes it had a great powerband, power to weight ratio and unique sound, and I can still hear one coming from across the lake. But I think a few of us need to remind ourselves by pulling one out and bashing the same conditions we ride today just how out dated those machines were. Yup "FOR THEIR DAY" we rode the crap out of them. And the competition could not push us off our pedestal. But saying they were more efficient, or more powerful is just BS without major modification.

Power to weight, is a different story. 180hp current engines are allowing the MFGs to put more weight on, more advanced suspensions etc. We all giggle as we say, "these were unbeatable on a smooth groomed trail" #*$&@, we are starting to sound like like the yahoos we argue with on the other sites when we start preaching that our 4 strokes are superior to their direct injected two strokes.

Today's sleds are designed to be more swiss army knives than just groomer rockets. I ride my current sled in much more varied conditions, for way more miles than I ever did on my SRX. But that may just be me. In the back of my mind, I can still see myself riding that SRX through 10ft deep powder, carrying a 5ft long trident with a lion under my arm. You get the idea.

 

[ClutchMaster]

WOW nothing like chasing a newbie out the door. the guy had an opinion that is okay. We allow that here. this is TY not doo talk. We welcome new people and there opinions till they get at least 100 posts then we can rip them a new butt hole because they will still probably stick around and help pay Tom's bills the keep the site alive. I may have missed something where he was being a jerk to you but I don't recall when or where that was. Just Sayin.

He stepped into the conversation making a unsubstantiated statement I didn’t agree with.
Sorry I was so hard on the fellow but if your gonna post something negative in the middle of our little pow wow atleast explain yourself.

Do any of you still ride the old iron? I still ride the old and the new. Like I said before without the M10 or some suspension upgrade, It’s no bueno.

They will never get a “modern twins” to run as smoothly as the old triples. One of my biggest gripes is the horrible vibration.

If anyone can tell me anything better about a twin cylinder snowmobile engine opposed to a triple cylinder feel free to enlighten me. Don’t say weight, there’s hardly a difference.

 

[biffdotorg]

Honestly, I hated to admit this one.

Last season, I was riding with a riding group buddy, and he had is brand new AC 800 CTEC2 powered ZR8000. I know the 2-stroke fanboys say that engine is down on power, and if my experience is right, it may be. But it actually had a very similar powerband to my Apex. Obviously the sound is different, but it was super smooth and pulled nearly identical.

So for the power junkies, Apex power would be considered down, but for a long time four stroke rider, I was surprised at the ultra wide power band for a 2-stroke. So yes, I believe there are some very smooth twins on the market if that one is any indication. Sitting at idle it would probably shake the handguards off, but I can't say that it sat idle for very long ever.

Would I buy one of these sled, probably not, for the same reason I don't want a Winder, or don't care for the Viper I own. But it's still a good sled. On that same note, I had the chance to ride an 850 ETEC packaged in a 137 Freeride chassis. That engine seems super powerful, but then again, it was clutched and geared for wheelies and a 2.25" track. So no, it's no lake racer, but had gobs of low end. I don't believe that was a factor of the engine though. It did like the high RPM's to find it's sweet spot. And there was nothing special about it's sound. Although at Idle, you could hardly tell the damn thing was running, especially when using the SHOT starter. You touch it, and it just starts idling, no crank. That tech blew my mind in person. You can only read about it so many times before seeing it work. It's very cool for sure.

 

[Fast]

Why is that? Because triples aren’t modern?
Let me tell ya something, modern isn’t always better! “Modern” can may times mean “Garbage” or “Throw away”
Put a well mapped fuel injection system with knock protection and I’ll buy one.

Fact is the large bore twins are more inherent towards ring failures because of the larger ports. They also run more ignition timing due to the pistons larger size making it more susceptible to detonation.

I laugh at people who think just because it’s not New it must be antiquated. The late 90’s early 2000’s triples were the epitome of two stroke performance. They made the most horsepower for their size and were more reliable than the current twins.
All these advertising 165hp twin cylinder motors are BS! The old iron 800 triples, many rated under 150hp would kick the snot out of any of these newer sleds and they were heavier.
I have an old 600 formula 3 it will smoke any 600 twin made to date, I’ve raced them all.

Your a victim of marketing, having to be seen on only newer machines because it might embarrass you or reduce your self esteem?

Your statement is just that, a statement, no rhyme or reason?

Bet that f3 would be looking at my 580 xlt mud flap

 

[ClutchMaster]

Bet that f3 would be looking at my 580 xlt mud flap

Yea if it ran out of gas maybe? Lol

 

[Kurt J]

He stepped into the conversation making a unsubstantiated statement I didn’t agree with.
Sorry I was so hard on the fellow but if your gonna post something negative in the middle of our little pow wow atleast explain yourself.

Do any of you still ride the old iron? I still ride the old and the new. Like I said before without the M10 or some suspension upgrade, It’s no bueno.

They will never get a “modern twins” to run as smoothly as the old triples. One of my biggest gripes is the horrible vibration.

If anyone can tell me anything better about a twin cylinder snowmobile engine opposed to a triple cylinder feel free to enlighten me. Don’t say weight, there’s hardly a difference.

You're some kind of special. Maybe I should just say "well bless your little heart" or something to that effect. My statement is completely substantiated. I said I'd never buy a new two stroke triple because I WON'T. Pretty simple. I gave my reasons, all valid, and you're the nay sayer who can't accept that anyone can have an opinion that differs from your own. You like triples, but they're not the best sled for how I ride. And it doesn't matter if I ride fast or slow, or jump, or whatever. I prefer a light twin and always will, until something comes along that works better for me.

 

[MrSled]

He stepped into the conversation making a unsubstantiated statement I didn’t agree with.
Sorry I was so hard on the fellow but if your gonna post something negative in the middle of our little pow wow atleast explain yourself.

Do any of you still ride the old iron? I still ride the old and the new. Like I said before without the M10 or some suspension upgrade, It’s no bueno.

They will never get a “modern twins” to run as smoothly as the old triples. One of my biggest gripes is the horrible vibration.

If anyone can tell me anything better about a twin cylinder snowmobile engine opposed to a triple cylinder feel free to enlighten me. Don’t say weight, there’s hardly a difference.

Let’s face the facts. You were removed before for a reason and I see you still have not really changed all that much. It sure would be nice to admit your faults and just say “ I’m sorry” but don’t think you have grown enough to do so.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Let’s face the facts. You were removed before for a reason and I see you still have not really changed all that much. It sure would be nice to admit your faults and just say “ I’m sorry” but don’t think you have grown enough to do so.

Ok your right I shouldn’t have been tearing him to shreds like that. I’m still sore the triples are gone, I’m sure you’ve noticed that!
Hey opinions are like assholes, guess i’m just another a$$hole with an opinion. MrSled is right, we can debate things in a civilized manor.
Sorry Kurt didn’t mean to hurt your feelings.

 

[VX1R]

Bet that f3 would be looking at my 580 xlt mud flap

Hey Fast...... Your comment brought back some great memories. For those of us who were actively riding sleds during the '90's I would say that era was truly one of the "golden days" of the sport. Lake racing was where it was at back then. The F3 class of oval racing was at it's epitome and the baby 600 triple class was a huge battleground for the OEM's. Polaris lit the fuse when they successfully sold the idea that their triple 600 was the way to go. At a whooping 4 pounds lighter than their hugely successful Indy 500 sled the sheep bought the idea in hoards. Polaris marketing dept. was at the top of it's game back then. Ski Doo swiftly released the F3 shortly followed by Arctic Cat with their Zert 600. Those three sleds outsold their bigger brothers in the 800-900 classes. Unfortunately Yamaha was late too the party and didn't release their own baby triple until 1998 when the SRX 600 hit the snow along with the SRX 700.

With the SRX models it was pretty much game over as no other OEM stood a chance in the baby 600 class. The SRX 700 was an over achiever and could handle the 800's by the other OEM's. But in typical Yamaha fashion during that era it was too little too late as the Polaris marketing team once again told the sheep that a big bore twin was now the way to go when they released the 700 twin RMK in '97 followed by the hugely popular '98 XC 700 twin. Once again both Ski Doo and Arctic Cat answered the call and Yamaha went their own way and started to develop their 4 stroke program. Lake racing along with oval racing slowly started to decline and snocross racing was starting to gain in popularity along with long travel suspensions.

Getting back to your comment....my money would be on the F3 against your 580 XLT unless of course there was a SRX 600 lurking in the weeds

The posers...

The King....

 

[Fast]

Yea if it ran out of gas maybe? Lol

Ya those formula's were real dogs same as the vmax 600's , neither could pass the ol olav aaen xlt

 

[Fast]

Hey Fast...... Your comment brought back some great memories. For those of us who were actively riding sleds during the '90's I would say that era was truly one of the "golden days" of the sport. Lake racing was where it was at back then. The F3 class of oval racing was at it's epitome and the baby 600 triple class was a huge battleground for the OEM's. Polaris lit the fuse when they successfully sold the idea that their triple 600 was the way to go. At a whooping 4 pounds lighter than their hugely successful Indy 500 sled the sheep bought the idea in hoards. Polaris marketing dept. was at the top of it's game back then. Ski Doo swiftly released the F3 shortly followed by Arctic Cat with their Zert 600. Those three sleds outsold their bigger brothers in the 800-900 classes. Unfortunately Yamaha was late too the party and didn't release their own baby triple until 1998 when the SRX 600 hit the snow along with the SRX 700.

With the SRX models it was pretty much game over as no other OEM stood a chance in the baby 600 class. The SRX 700 was an over achiever and could handle the 800's by the other OEM's. But in typical Yamaha fashion during that era it was too little too late as the Polaris marketing team once again told the sheep that a big bore twin was now the way to go when they released the 700 XCR. Once again both Ski Doo and Arctic Cat answered the call and Yamaha went their own way and started to develop their 4 stroke program. Lake racing along with oval racing slowly started to decline and snocross racing was starting to gain in popularity along with long travel suspensions.

Getting back to your comment....my money would be on the F3 against your 580 XLT unless of course there was a SRX 600 lurking in the weeds

The posers...
View attachment 148969 View attachment 148970 View attachment 148971

The King....
View attachment 148968

You got them in order srx,xlt,doo then cat

 

[Fast]

Hey Fast...... Your comment brought back some great memories. For those of us who were actively riding sleds during the '90's I would say that era was truly one of the "golden days" of the sport. Lake racing was where it was at back then. The F3 class of oval racing was at it's epitome and the baby 600 triple class was a huge battleground for the OEM's. Polaris lit the fuse when they successfully sold the idea that their triple 600 was the way to go. At a whooping 4 pounds lighter than their hugely successful Indy 500 sled the sheep bought the idea in hoards. Polaris marketing dept. was at the top of it's game back then. Ski Doo swiftly released the F3 shortly followed by Arctic Cat with their Zert 600. Those three sleds outsold their bigger brothers in the 800-900 classes. Unfortunately Yamaha was late too the party and didn't release their own baby triple until 1998 when the SRX 600 hit the snow along with the SRX 700.

With the SRX models it was pretty much game over as no other OEM stood a chance in the baby 600 class. The SRX 700 was an over achiever and could handle the 800's by the other OEM's. But in typical Yamaha fashion during that era it was too little too late as the Polaris marketing team once again told the sheep that a big bore twin was now the way to go when they released the 700 XCR. Once again both Ski Doo and Arctic Cat answered the call and Yamaha went their own way and started to develop their 4 stroke program. Lake racing along with oval racing slowly started to decline and snocross racing was starting to gain in popularity along with long travel suspensions.

Getting back to your comment....my money would be on the F3 against your 580 XLT unless of course there was a SRX 600 lurking in the weeds

The posers...
View attachment 148969 View attachment 148970 View attachment 148971

The King....
View attachment 148968

Nice, bringing back lots of memmories i guess ot all came dowm to set up if you were runming a aaen or flanery xlt sled the f3 never stood a chance but stock form maybe

 

[ClutchMaster]

Hey Fast...... Your comment brought back some great memories. For those of us who were actively riding sleds during the '90's I would say that era was truly one of the "golden days" of the sport. Lake racing was where it was at back then. The F3 class of oval racing was at it's epitome and the baby 600 triple class was a huge battleground for the OEM's. Polaris lit the fuse when they successfully sold the idea that their triple 600 was the way to go. At a whooping 4 pounds lighter than their hugely successful Indy 500 sled the sheep bought the idea in hoards. Polaris marketing dept. was at the top of it's game back then. Ski Doo swiftly released the F3 shortly followed by Arctic Cat with their Zert 600. Those three sleds outsold their bigger brothers in the 800-900 classes. Unfortunately Yamaha was late too the party and didn't release their own baby triple until 1998 when the SRX 600 hit the snow along with the SRX 700.

With the SRX models it was pretty much game over as no other OEM stood a chance in the baby 600 class. The SRX 700 was an over achiever and could handle the 800's by the other OEM's. But in typical Yamaha fashion during that era it was too little too late as the Polaris marketing team once again told the sheep that a big bore twin was now the way to go when they released the 700 XCR. Once again both Ski Doo and Arctic Cat answered the call and Yamaha went their own way and started to develop their 4 stroke program. Lake racing along with oval racing slowly started to decline and snocross racing was starting to gain in popularity along with long travel suspensions.

Getting back to your comment....my money would be on the F3 against your 580 XLT unless of course there was a SRX 600 lurking in the weeds

The posers...
View attachment 148969 View attachment 148970 View attachment 148971

The King....
View attachment 148968

Nice write up VX1R!!
Yes the oem’s used to bring copious amounts of innovation back in the day, the triples being one of my faves.
There’s actual reasons why Jaguar makes a V12 and your vehicles you drive around town aren’t one or two cylinders.
Why do you think the V-max 4 dominated its class and even classes above it?
Why does a boosted Apex make more power than 998t (same boost) although they are equal displacement?
Cylinder filling and linear piston speed that’s why. Smooth power delivery is the added bonus.

Your post is 99% correct, just one little tweak.
In 1998 Polaris wasn’t taking any chances on what the “sheep” would buy into... so they came to market with both twins and triples.
The highly rated XC 700 & 600 non-power valved twins, marketed and advertised like crazy. The other contestant in 1999 was the XCR 700 & 800 power valved triples with virtually no marketing or PR related to these beast sleds. To this day nobody talks about them. Virtually nobody bought them in 1999. Really the only way to see one was to go to the dealer. Imo they were testing the sheep to see the impacts of marketing. The sheep did not disappoint. They oversold the cheaper non-power valved twins and the XCR’s were sitting around waiting too be sold.
It’s a shame because that 700 & 800 XCR motor was beasty! It was the only 700 triple that would run side by side with the SRX 700. I still have my old 1999 XCR with the premium fuel switch, and I can tell you bone stock it will beat up an SRX after the jetting clutching are corrected, no $hit they jetted this sled for -40 Fahrenheit!
The engine block was much stronger than the yamaha triples and the reed cages are HUGE!

As for the formula 3 there has never been a production 600cc snowmobile that makes the horsepower than the F3 made. Rated at 125hp, and it was truly 125 if not more. It was proven at Dynojet years ago and is still the king. The SRX and ZRT both come in at under 120hp. I want to say the 580 XLT was under 100hp but I’m not sure? I’ve proven this claim racing every 600 I could, and still have never been beat, especially the new iron.

 

[Fast]

Nice write up VX1R!!
Yes the oem’s used to bring copious amounts of innovation back in the day, the triples being one of my faves.
There’s actual reasons why Jaguar makes a V12 and your vehicles you drive around town aren’t one or two cylinders.
Why do you think the V-max 4 dominated its class and even classes above it?
Why does a boosted Apex make more power than 998t (same boost) although they are equal displacement?
Cylinder filling and linear piston speed that’s why. Smooth power delivery is the added bonus.

Your post is 99% correct, just one little tweak.
In 1998 Polaris wasn’t taking any chances on what the “sheep” would buy into... so they came to market with both twins and triples.
The highly rated XC 700 & 600 non-power valved twins, marketed and advertised like crazy. The other contestant in 1999 was the XCR 700 & 800 power valved triples with virtually no marketing or PR related to these beast sleds. To this day nobody talks about them. Virtually nobody bought them in 1999. Really the only way to see one was to go to the dealer. Imo they were testing the sheep to see the impacts of marketing. The sheep did not disappoint. They oversold the cheaper non-power valved twins and the XCR’s were sitting around waiting too be sold.
It’s a shame because that 700 & 800 XCR motor was beasty! It was the only 700 triple that would run side by side with the SRX 700. I still have my old 1999 XCR with the premium fuel switch, and I can tell you bone stock it will beat up an SRX after the jetting clutching are corrected, no $hit they jetted this sled for -40 Fahrenheit!
The engine block was much stronger than the yamaha triples and the reed cages are HUGE!

As for the formula 3 there has never been a production 600cc snowmobile that makes the horsepower than the F3 made. Rated at 125hp, and it was truly 125 if not more. It was proven at Dynojet years ago and is still the king. The SRX and ZRT both come in at under 120hp. I want to say the 580 XLT was under 100hp but I’m not sure? I’ve proven this claim racing every 600 I could, and still have never been beat, especially the new iron.

This post sure shows us how much sleds evolved in the past 20 years, i never new the xcr 800 could beat an srx a buddy had 2002 hot to go xcr and it would run right behind my apex as for the xlt they weren't very fast stock i think mine was 85hp but with a few mods aaen pipes heads porting it was right around 112 hp but clutched right it was a beast for a 600 ,Doug Flanery had a xlt down sleeved to a 500 and would clean up drag racing the 500-700 class all day long hammering the doo's and cats what a blast from the past