On the hunt for z daffy ducks.

[maim]

yes cat had the t660 back in the early 2000's as a guy on one stopped to pull me out of a fence when i missed a corner on a 02 viper.

 

[stevewithOCD]

Here are MY findings for over 600 miles this weekend.
An SRX should NOT have a problem with a Mach.
BUT i will dispel some things right here right now.
I pulled every 850 from beginning to end on my 900R. Not sure who's loosing this battle.

STOCK SLEDS:
That means suspensions set up for high speed cornering with skis on ground, can handle bumps, no tunes, regular windshields, normal pick set up & in this case; SAME.
On hard pack against my old ECOTRAIL Winder i'd give him the hit from 5-70 mph. This sled would pull a stock Winder easily in middle.
Don't forget i set both these sleds up for MY riding.
I would jolt ahead by a length or more EVERY TIME. That's after i let him go.
The snow dust was extreme due to cold so we'd have to let off for safety cuz nite & snow dust is dangerous.
When we got to lake next day the snow was loose & we tried to pack it down some.
I lost my advantage of the DOO weight transfer, but he lost his top end advantage.
I beat him to .3 miles 8 of 10 times.
He was catching me right there, but cuz of THESE conditions it wasn't much. Never really got a top end race, but i'm sure what will happen.
I also don't know how well that sled is running right now top rpm wise. Hard to look at a tach on a trail at those speeds.

BOTTOM LINE:
Most guys are NOT gonna race you. 998 is KING PERIOD. Everybody relax.
Ski Doo's transfer weight well.
This is actually their downfall in the trails. For 25 years riding any Doo means trying to keep front end on ground.
This lack of transfer on the Winder is good for high speed trails but sucks for acceleration. Pick your poison.

Now about these 850's
I ran an 850 Poo & 2 Doo's and it wasn't really a race.
As a matter of fact i rode them all.
On the big trails the Winder was so PRECISE & Confident like a Cadillac. I DOO miss that.
The POO was absolutely AMAZING suspension wise. NOTHING IS EVEN CLOSE TO IT!
I still hate 2-strokes.
My sled lofts over hills better than ALL of them & pulls away on corners.

The reality is this, these 2 sleds run very identical speed wise on a trail. Side by side a lot. BOTH destroying the 850's.
It really came down to rider in this case...........................

 

[number1kyster]

Thanks for sharing Steve! How is the rest of your sled? Ride, fuel economy, etc?

 

[74Nitro]

Here are MY findings for over 600 miles this weekend.
An SRX should NOT have a problem with a Mach.
BUT i will dispel some things right here right now.
I pulled every 850 from beginning to end on my 900R. Not sure who's loosing this battle.

STOCK SLEDS:
That means suspensions set up for high speed cornering with skis on ground, can handle bumps, no tunes, regular windshields, normal pick set up & in this case; SAME.
On hard pack against my old ECOTRAIL Winder i'd give him the hit from 5-70 mph. This sled would pull a stock Winder easily in middle.
Don't forget i set both these sleds up for MY riding.
I would jolt ahead by a length or more EVERY TIME. That's after i let him go.
The snow dust was extreme due to cold so we'd have to let off for safety cuz nite & snow dust is dangerous.
When we got to lake next day the snow was loose & we tried to pack it down some.
I lost my advantage of the DOO weight transfer, but he lost his top end advantage.
I beat him to .3 miles 8 of 10 times.
He was catching me right there, but cuz of THESE conditions it wasn't much. Never really got a top end race, but i'm sure what will happen.
I also don't know how well that sled is running right now top rpm wise. Hard to look at a tach on a trail at those speeds.

BOTTOM LINE:
Most guys are NOT gonna race you. 998 is KING PERIOD. Everybody relax.
Ski Doo's transfer weight well.
This is actually their downfall in the trails. For 25 years riding any Doo means trying to keep front end on ground.
This lack of transfer on the Winder is good for high speed trails but sucks for acceleration. Pick your poison.

Now about these 850's
I ran an 850 Poo & 2 Doo's and it wasn't really a race.
As a matter of fact i rode them all.
On the big trails the Winder was so PRECISE & Confident like a Cadillac. I DOO miss that.
The POO was absolutely AMAZING suspension wise. NOTHING IS EVEN CLOSE TO IT!
I still hate 2-strokes.
My sled lofts over hills better than ALL of them & pulls away on corners.

The reality is this, these 2 sleds run very identical speed wise on a trail. Side by side a lot. BOTH destroying the 850's.
It really came down to rider in this case...........................

Hi Steve
Everyone here is relaxed - it's dootalk where all the new turbo owners are up in arms over top speed.
You're not telling us much we didn't already know to be honest, it's the top speed that's in question.

 

[stevewithOCD]

Hi Steve
Everyone here is relaxed - it's dootalk where all the new turbo owners are up in arms over top speed.
You're not telling us much we didn't already know to be honest, it's the top speed that's in question.

You're right.
Some are pissed! I try to stay neutral about it
I'm not
I didn't buy this thing to beat a Winder
It does seem to be missing some top end & we think it's the ECU

 

[stevewithOCD]

Thanks for sharing Steve! How is the rest of your sled? Ride, fuel economy, etc?

I have a report or comparison coming. Just haven't written it yet. Was hoping to run a STOCK Winder first.
I hope people will read it & see how GOOD the Procross chassis still is although i believe it needs some fixes.
My old Winder on big groomed trails is just a Cadillac. I thought it was best there.
My new DOO pulls the front end up a bit while on throttle which is common on a DOO for 25 years now.
On SPORT mode in big fast corners it's difficult to manipulate, but on NORMAL it's good. I switch modes quite a bit when trails change.
I do much better mpg ESPECIALLY on ECO mode. Maybe 18-20 mpg.
The Winder actually ran out of gas so i rode to station then back with some gas for him.
I took about 1.5 gallons less per run about half a tank per fill up. And i'm up front. Throttle is my nickname.

I rode all 3 manufacturers for a spell & i have to admit, they all have good qualities.
For my area i like the 4-stroke solidness. (could be made up word)
If i rode VT or NH or even lower Maine, i'd be on that Poo 850. It IS nice. My GAWD!
There are A LOT of little things that DOO does.
Like adjusting chain tension in 60 seconds. I actually made a video of it. 60 seconds at a stop sign.
Lines on the handlebars for ease of adjustment or just checking.
A little lock in hole for the battery tender.
Gas mileage on screen, light adjustment on screen, Headlight Adjustment, transfer blocks adjustments........etc, etc

I am NOT happy without a BOV though!
Sounds like the motor is backfiring.
I just ordered one. Shame on BRP for this!

But every knoll or hill i LOFT over them giggling like a boy reading the Panties Section in a Sears Catalog. (that was for you old bastards)
My Winder just did not respond like that mostly to weight transfer.
I haven't blown a belt or broke anything yet so i'm ahead of the game................................so far..........next week 1600 mile trip

 

[snowdust]

Thanks for the honest feedback. It looks to be inline with what others are finding. The mach looks to be a great sled... Just not the king of the lake that many were hoping. It sounds like the 850's are getting them on top end as well so that's a tough pill to swallow especially if you came from one. Everyone is hoping it is in the ecu and they get an update, but Doo surely knew exactly how these ran before they released them so I'm not sure that is going to happen. Hopefully it does though. They are an expensive sled. If they can get it to where the 850's can't beat it on top end I'd say it delivered. With the 998 being so much easier to get HP out of I wouldn't have thought people would have bought the Mach with plans of beating tuned winders. If they are beating everything else then mission accomplished.

 

[max rolph]

soo as history will dictate, back in 2003 the F7 was a rocket for a 700 cc sled, would get great fuel economy and hit the mid teens out of box with 1.25 track and 10 tooth drived and 13.5 track.... then came 2004 F7 NIGHT FIRE .. square, triangle OR circle ecu box's..... they would get terrible fuel economy and would barely do 107 mph with the 9 tooth drivers.... are group complained soo much that CAT actually contacted our dealer in TORONTO and said " who the f are these guys??? we had a long 5 day ride scheduled for northern quebec... we all switched our tracks to 1.5"because of snow conditions, Cat then asked our dealer to have us send the ECU back for reflashing.... SERIOUSLY...!!! we sent monday morning and had them back in our hands thursday just in time to leave Cat also asked for a feed back from us after the weekend.. we all put them on (4 of us) and left without testing, we got @ 40miles more to a tank and could now get 114mph out of sled.... we then put 10 tooth drivers on with stock track and got 118mph the next week..... So what im Hinting at here is that i would bet that there will be a re flash come out for these R's and itll prob wake them up as the aftermarkets ecu are doing... as we know from tuning these 998, there re alot of gains to be had.
PS and because of what Cat did for us... as a nobody back then sort of made me loyal and back then we pounded these sleds and use to get off and shake our heads and say how the hell are they still in one piece!!

 

[sideshowBob]

If you want a SW that lifts the front end at will and has great weight transfer you just have to ride an X-TX.
Its not unlike riding an old Honda CR 500 2 stroke Moto Crosser.

 

[jonlafon1]

If you want a SW that lifts the front end at will and has great weight transfer you just have to ride an X-TX.
Its not unlike riding an old Honda CR 500 2 stroke Moto Crosser.

Bingo.. so correct..

The 2017 137" LTX without plastic adjuster blocks was ski lift to 4-6" at will up to 80Mph on hard pack.. 2022 without adjuster blocks very slight ski lift 2-3". And this 2022 is a step up on tune..

 

[KnappAttack]

OCD, what you have to remember is your Renegade 900R is the lightest version they make of that model. As I recall its like 50-60 lbs lighter than the heavyweight Mack, which is huge. Add in the fact that you are a lightweight runt and it makes for a decent power to weight ratio, or at least it should.

My buddy owns a Mack and is getting driven around by the 850s with equal rider weights. So he really isn't happy like most all the other fellas with the Mack. His is pulling RPM up where it should up at 7900 too. They have an issue that they don't run like a 193HP sled should. You can be happy because you are not getting driven around by the 850's, but most of them are and I feel for them. They are pissed as they should be. My old modded 1200 NA sled which I know didn't go over 155HP has run a higher 124MPH Dreameter speeds than any of the 900R has run from the reports I see over there which just isn't right. The 900R has no more suspension travel in it than that 1200 did. Same thing if you look at the specs. I dont see that being the reason for the poor speeds of the 900R.

The funny part is no one is dynoning them, checking boost levels or even intercooler temps to even start diagnosing where the problem lies with it to cheat what BRP gave you. They all are changing weights, springs and belts on the dang thing. Pretty crazy! You need to start with the basics and find out were the power is first. Is the power there or not? How many seconds in the dyno run before the power falls off? Is the power falling off over time? These questions need answered before you start pulling clutching back. I've never pulled the clutching away from a a race sled and won a race! You first must fix and address the power issue.

I know exactly why the dont make for a good underdog like the 1200 was. Doo knows too. They intentionally chose the package they did and locked the ECU like a padlocked chastity belt. They don't want them going fast and they sure don't want them going any faster from the aftermarket. Sure the aftermarket has now the ability to swap ECU's out, but the gains are still minimal compared to the 998.

 

[Doc Harley]

Where was this 200HP dyno reading? I heard low 190’s back around the shootout in early December.

 

[SledFreak]

Here are MY findings for over 600 miles this weekend.
An SRX should NOT have a problem with a Mach.
BUT i will dispel some things right here right now.
I pulled every 850 from beginning to end on my 900R. Not sure who's loosing this battle.

STOCK SLEDS:
That means suspensions set up for high speed cornering with skis on ground, can handle bumps, no tunes, regular windshields, normal pick set up & in this case; SAME.
On hard pack against my old ECOTRAIL Winder i'd give him the hit from 5-70 mph. This sled would pull a stock Winder easily in middle.
Don't forget i set both these sleds up for MY riding.
I would jolt ahead by a length or more EVERY TIME. That's after i let him go.
The snow dust was extreme due to cold so we'd have to let off for safety cuz nite & snow dust is dangerous.
When we got to lake next day the snow was loose & we tried to pack it down some.
I lost my advantage of the DOO weight transfer, but he lost his top end advantage.
I beat him to .3 miles 8 of 10 times.
He was catching me right there, but cuz of THESE conditions it wasn't much. Never really got a top end race, but i'm sure what will happen.
I also don't know how well that sled is running right now top rpm wise. Hard to look at a tach on a trail at those speeds.

BOTTOM LINE:
Most guys are NOT gonna race you. 998 is KING PERIOD. Everybody relax.
Ski Doo's transfer weight well.
This is actually their downfall in the trails. For 25 years riding any Doo means trying to keep front end on ground.
This lack of transfer on the Winder is good for high speed trails but sucks for acceleration. Pick your poison.

Just because the DOO transfers hard, does NOT mean it is quicker out of the hole than a Winder. More track on the ground wins the race. Period!!.

 

[Doc Harley]

Ski-Doo bent them over, and now the aftermarket is going to give them the bone....

 

[jonlafon1]

Oh my.....

8G ? Damn that is a lot of coin! We don't know how good we have it on these Yamacats!