Yamaha Cutting Production for 2019

[stevewithOCD]

ALL 2-strokes would not meet the emissions standards that were put in place a few years back. The big corps lobbied hard & won to lower those standards. I believe the original standards that were suppose to be in place might have played a part in Yamaha's decision to go all 4-stroke.

 

[stevewithOCD]

Lots of high tech involve with making the new 2 strokes survive, but it's made them heavier too. Look at the outboard market, not much difference between 2 strokes and 4 stroke weights anymore as they NEED to have the 2 strokes durable enough to go 2000+ hours. Doo has transferred most of the "durability" goodies from Evinrude outboards into the new 850 but the 850 is still spins 2500+ more RPM than the outboards. I just don't see anymore left on the table for 2 strokes, heck, they have added displacement on 2 stroke outboards to make the same HP numbers as old engine because the lean A/F was heating up the pistons too much. Our 4 stroke tech, for the most part, is still running on 1990's technology except for the Winder.

Good point. There is some serious 4-stroke tech out there, but at what cost. Boat motors are over $20,000 each & there's only a motor, shaft, casing & some gears. To put some serious R&D into a 4-stroke, a manufacturer would have to be sure to sell A LOT of them.

I:E Yamaha & Arctic Cat teaming up

 

[vodoo child]

Well said Steve, ROI is the driving factor in all business today. With the age demographic of sledders getting older and the millennials lack of interest in snowmobiling. I don't see Yamaha going any other route then the OEM agreement with Cat. The drop in big bike sales (I.E. more costly) and Harley Davidson in particular are a prime example of the age demographic catching up to a company. How long can Yamaha keep making profits on rebadged Cats? When the profits start to shrink then it's crunch time for Yamaha. Do they invest and stay in the sled business, or fold up and call it a day! Being a Debbie Downer at heart, I'm going with the latter! Time will tell!

 

[20/80]

I think Yamaha has and is investing in the snowmobile division of Yamaha and is clearly pointing out the direction they are heading in, just look at the Sidewinder engine the tech and development that went into this engine to bring it to us snowmobilers also the introduction of the snow scoot to bring younger crowd into the sport, the bringing back of the VK540 in a 2 stroke and remember they moved there head office to Toronto Canada and hired some big names in the industry to help with development and vision, I also believe the move to Canada will lift some restrictions that was imposed on Yamaha in development in Japan, this all is a huge investment in our sport by Yamaha.....you haven't seen anything yet.

 

[TILAM1]

The Sidewinder was a huge development and highly regarded here and throughout the industry. Undisputed horsepower king.
The Snoscoot shows investment in the longer term for the industry. While not a great design breakthrough it is something no one else was doing. I get the impression it is mostly Yamaha design.
To say Yamaha hasn't been addressing the market is missing many points.
I agree that they had, and still do have , a confusing lineup which might put some buyers off a bit. That's where they could streamline the products to make themselves. RTX, LTX, BTX, STX, XTX, MTX. Then there was DX, SE, LE added to many of those. Many of these are repeated again in the Sidewinder and Apex lines. Par down the models and make it less confusing.
Having returned after many years away from snowmobiles I didn't know what was what. Ended up buying the RTX as that's what fit in my trailer.

 

[T-Bone]

As a previous Yamaha owner (sold all my sleds) I remember when the agreement was announced between Yamaha and AC feeling like this really has some potential for both sides. That is if you brought the full power of Yamaha combined with what AC's strengths were how could you lose and that Ski-Doo and Polaris better look out.

In reality what we ended up with is stagnation (excluding the SW engine) from both companies. I will give Yamaha big thumbs up for the SW engine. I think it's going to recognized as one of the best snowmobile engines of all time, but what else have they done since 2008? AC seems to be following along now with the no new chassis for quite some time.

To me this is the worst case and not like anything scenario I imagined when the deal was struck. Sure, Yamaha was able to stay in business due to the AC chassis and AC's quality issues have improved, but is that what anybody thought would be the outcome? The market share of each party is the same now as it was before the deal with no real joint effort. Where is the joint product that's causing the engineers at Ski-Doo and Polaris to lose sleep?

With the sale of AC to Textron (lots of unknowns and distractions) and the overall lack of any interest from Yamaha in the snowmobile development business I'm guessing the crickets have taken over and are at full volume at sled R&D departments at both Yamaha and AC. My .02

 

[20/80]

As a previous Yamaha owner (sold all my sleds) I remember when the agreement was announced between Yamaha and AC feeling like this really has some potential for both sides. That is if you brought the full power of Yamaha combined with what AC's strengths were how could you lose and that Ski-Doo and Polaris better look out.

In reality what we ended up with is stagnation (excluding the SW engine) from both companies. I will give Yamaha big thumbs up for the SW engine. I think it's going to recognized as one of the best snowmobile engines of all time, but what else have they done since 2008? AC seems to be following along now with the no new chassis for quite some time.

To me this is the worst case and not like anything scenario I imagined when the deal was struck. Sure, Yamaha was able to stay in business due to the AC chassis and AC's quality issues have improved, but is that what anybody thought would be the outcome? The market share of each party is the same now as it was before the deal with no real joint effort. Where is the joint product that's causing the engineers at Ski-Doo and Polaris to lose sleep?

With the sale of AC to Textron (lots of unknowns and distractions) and the overall lack of any interest from Yamaha in the snowmobile development business I'm guessing the crickets have taken over and are at full volume at sled R&D departments at both Yamaha and AC. My .02

I don't think Yamaha has lost interest in the snowmobile development, I think they are moving forward not as fast as people would like but moving forward with development and investment, you will see Yamaha move away from Textron in the near future they are just lining up their ducks first, what has Ski doo done that Yamaha didn't, new updated chassis, new engine, Polaris is rebadging the same chassis with new stickers and a new and improved 800 throw away engine, Ski doo has a new 850 which will end up a throw away engine also regardless what they say and both companies are asking big dollars for their products basing everything on that they are light, if you can afford to trade every year then buy them, a 2008 apex is just as good today as it was back in 2008 with just about the same hp as the new 850, a 2008 Ski-doo 800r would be in the bone yard by 2010 and same as the Polaris 800 if you were lucky and your hard earned dollars gone with it.. but they are light.

 

[T-Bone]

I don't think Yamaha has lost interest in the snowmobile development, I think they are moving forward not as fast as people would like but moving forward with development and investment, you will see Yamaha move away from Textron in the near future they are just lining up their ducks first, what has Ski doo done that Yamaha didn't, new updated chassis, new engine, Polaris is rebadging the same chassis with new stickers and a new and improved 800 throw away engine, Ski doo has a new 850 which will end up a throw away engine also regardless what they say and both companies are asking big dollars for their products basing everything on that they are light, if you can afford to trade every year then buy them, a 2008 apex is just as good today as it was back in 2008 with just about the same hp as the new 850, a 2008 Ski-doo 800r would be in the bone yard by 2010 and same as the Polaris 800 if you were lucky and your hard earned dollars gone with it.. but they are light.

I hope you are right and Yamaha knocks our socks off soon. I just can't get by the fact that Yamaha has not developed a new chassis since 2008. That's ten years ago.

 

[20/80]

I hope you are right and Yamaha knocks our socks off soon. I just can't get by the fact that Yamaha has not developed a new chassis since 2008. That's ten years ago.

The platform is the same but lots of updates and improvements, not a big fan of the shared Cat chassis it is getting old also, I believe Yamaha has sorted a lot of problems out for Cat with the partnership, Textron has its own idea's for the future of Cat sleds and Yamaha is not in it regardless what they are saying now, I think Yamaha is holding back on releasing a new pure Yamaha Chassis so they don't have to share the new tech with Textron, if they do re-sign the partnership contract this clause will be in it, sorry to here your getting out of snowmobiling.

 

[Turtle]

The platform is the same but lots of updates and improvements ...

I'm not a big fan of the Apex. But I whereas I will agree that the Apex has had updates and improvement, the problem is that those were spread over a 10 year span. Yamaha has got to get better at bringing improvements and updates at a much faster rate. This is what will bring people into the dealers with excitement for a new sled. Take the Viper for example. Here we are with the 2018 version of it - 5 model years in. But it still has a so-so ECU. The Sidewinder has a Yamaha ECU ... why couldn't have they taken the fuel mapping and ECU ownership away from Cat and made that fix permanent? The Sidewinder has the new updated body panels. Putting those panels on the Viper would have given the sled a refresh and it would have been easy thing to do. There are more that I could possibly think of. But if a person right now is in the market for a Viper, what's the incentive to buy new, when you can essentially get the same sled used? The Nytro is another example of a sled strung out way too long with no updates to get buyers back into the dealerships, and the same thing with the Vector. Too many years with too little of updates. I have a 2015 sled that I bought brand new and I may be in the market for a new sled next year. But I fear I will be looking at lineup that hasn't changed much. Buy the time Yamaha has perfected a sled, the market for it is dying, or practically dead.

 

[rtx moose]

why do you think yamaha moved there sled division to north america?they are just gettting there ducks in a row so they can react to the fast moving market...if yamaha wanted to they could pull in engine technology that could drive them up to #1.The reps of yamaha are on this site taking it in but most people think stuff happens overnight...patience!!!!!!

 

[SumpBuster]

Why do we always need a new chassis? I think they've all done about as much as possible.....how many different positions can you mount shocks to a tub of aluminum, carbon fiber, steel? Shocks outside the tunnel, shocks inside the tunnel. Calibration of a well made chassis is more important than just another newer, lighter, cracking piece of aluminum. Shocks tipped forward, tipped back, tall a arms...I've ridden older sleds that work better than brand new ones! Calibration!!! Nothing new under the sun.
Unless the typical snowmobile itself undergoes a drastic change, it's a shell game.

 

[Doc Harley]

Funny.......I always gave props to skidoo. After watching them closely, skidoo has found a way to convince the guy who just bought a '17 that it is junk. And the new for '18 model will make him a happier rider. Even thou it's just a graphics change or changed the plastics a bit. And the riders suck on it like nothing I've ever seen b4. Lol!

I think yamaha needs to adapt this way of thinking. To keep things fresh. Who knows......

 

[Cubby]

My hope is that Yamaha is waiting for Arctic Cat to be sold and then buy them. This gives them manufacturing in North America (cheaper than building in Japan) and distribution/dealer network.

One canwish.

 

[SumpBuster]

Funny.......I always gave props to skidoo. After watching them closely, skidoo has found a way to convince the guy who just bought a '17 that it is junk. And the new for '18 model will make him a happier rider. Even thou it's just a graphics change or changed the plastics a bit. And the riders suck on it like nothing I've ever seen b4. Lol!

I think yamaha needs to adapt this way of thinking. To keep things fresh. Who knows......

Totally agreed. I have sled mags going back to 73..lol...and every year, it's the greatest thing ever, and last year is junk, even though last year was the greatest thing ever! I rode skidoo for decades during the first 10 inch rear with outside shocks...then the prs suspensions, then ski do became mainstream with the industry standard twin shock, torsion springs....dating back 30 years or more. It's hilarious, really. How many rear suspension designs have there been...sure, I really like the monoshock, but it has some issues...the swing arms have some issues...but little tweaks to the twin shock gold standard design seem to always be the best.