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Yamaha Cutting Production for 2019


Ok, my 2 cents and honest opinion. I have no Idea where Yamaha is headed or what they are truly up to and frankly nobody I think on site does either , There might be a guy or two that will get lucky with what they think but its all guessing anyway. I hope Yamaha is going to show there efforts and input at some point and its all good. Every sled maker has its strong points and weak that's why we have folks chose one over the other. I will be honest on the reason I went Yamaha 10 yrs ago and it was there engine (apex) and fit and finish and quality in the build. I came off AC sleds that I thought where not and getting worse. I know if the truth was to be told by most guys they have put a lot more work into the brand loyal make they own than is ever heard and then advertise there make of choice as being bullet proof. My apex (being a RTX at the time) had the worst skis, hand warmers that do not work, and I spent more than you would want to know on the "best bump sled skid " that came with it.. eventually replaced with a M10. The Y-pipes broke, the exhaust donuts went bad several times.... so they are all the same with one doing something better than the other. I would like to see Yamaha stay in the game!
 
cannondale27 said:
Sasquatch I saw one major thing to me that you finally wrote. "Yamaha needs to buy Cat Snowmobile" That is it. The Key. Till they do I will not buy another new Yamaha. Will buy a used/leftover Apex for real riding and a 2 st other for play.
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Not finally, I have said it more then once! But glad you agree!
 
Yea Sasquatch has been singing that refrain for a long time!
Hope you had a merry Christmas and a happy new year Charley.
Yamadoo
 
whitedust1 said:
Guys don't hold your breath that Yamaha will buy Cat from Textron. #1 Yamaha will never ever put their name on any Textron 2s engines forget it engines are the core biz of Yamaha and they are darn good at it. So in my mind what would Yamaha buy that the OEM Agreement does not already give them? You go the OEM route in the first place because it is more profitable than in house mfg. No idea what some of you are thinking from a profit stand point? If some how someone could prove to Yamaha it is profitable to buy Cat not go the OEM route then #2 Textron would have to want to sell Cat which is unlikely at this time. So expect more of the same via OEM Agreement and maybe just maybe Yamaha has a clean sheet Apex limited build replacement out of Japan but probably not with the low snow winters and the lack of new designs from all the competition. The snomo mags are a real bore this year and I'm done with them just nothing new to feature and read about. I'll miss the Apex but really it was not selling and dealers were dying on the vine with it. If the SS suspension was a hit many would have stepped up and bought a new Apex but it was very harsh much worse than the CK plus the deeper lugged trackss were useless to most trail riders. The Apex is a power crusier pimp it out with great shocks, EC Ohlins, cushy suspension, prestudded ice ripper tracks, heated seats, tall windshield, LED Lights, Snowtrackers, EPS, Trick updated pod, all the stuff I have to put on aftermarket & possibly many of us would buy new.
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There is a lot of benefit for Yamaha to buy Cat. A whole chassis suspension dept that can build both something Yamaha lacks. Manufacturing in North America not Japan. Yamaha does not have to put their name on a two stroke they put Cats name on it!
 
yamadoo said:
Yea Sasquatch has been singing that refrain for a long time!
Hope you had a merry Christmas and a happy new year Charley.
Yamadoo
Click to expand...
All four grandkids are running me ragged, I think I died and went to heaven! Best Christmas ever! Man this house is going to suck when they go home. Merry Christmas Happy New Year to you and yours Mark! No to everyone!
 
Rich Kay said:
Ok, my 2 cents and honest opinion. I have no Idea where Yamaha is headed or what they are truly up to and frankly nobody I think on site does either , There might be a guy or two that will get lucky with what they think but its all guessing anyway. I hope Yamaha is going to show there efforts and input at some point and its all good. Every sled maker has its strong points and weak that's why we have folks chose one over the other. I will be honest on the reason I went Yamaha 10 yrs ago and it was there engine (apex) and fit and finish and quality in the build. I came off AC sleds that I thought where not and getting worse. I know if the truth was to be told by most guys they have put a lot more work into the brand loyal make they own than is ever heard and then advertise there make of choice as being bullet proof. My apex (being a RTX at the time) had the worst skis, hand warmers that do not work, and I spent more than you would want to know on the "best bump sled skid " that came with it.. eventually replaced with a M10. The Y-pipes broke, the exhaust donuts went bad several times.... so they are all the same with one doing something better than the other. I would like to see Yamaha stay in the game!
Click to expand...

All those issues fixed in the 2011 Apex. Star kit softened the harshness of the ride but the XTX works very well as a bump sled. 12,000 miles no issues yet!
 
Sasquatch said:
There is a lot of benefit for Yamaha to buy Cat. A whole chassis suspension dept that can build both something Yamaha lacks. Manufacturing in North America not Japan. Yamaha does not have to put their name on a two stroke they put Cats name on it!
Click to expand...
You are proving my point the OEM Agreements gives Yamaha access to any AC chassis silly to buy AC for what you already have via OEM Agreement. If Yamaha wants to release a leading edge 2s engine they have the capability to do so.... they don't want too unless changing direction. Yamaha could kick butt with a 3 cylinder 2s the market place is begging for it but I don't think that is the Yamaha direction. If Yamaha introduces anything it will be a 4s Apex replacement in the 150-160hp zone and Vector is gone. Yamaha won't orphan the Viper and Sidewinder and piss off the faithful they will stay the course via OEM Agreement. What is interesting is the pure Yamaha future products and direction.
 
whitedust1 said:
You are proving my point the OEM Agreements gives Yamaha access to any AC chassis silly to buy AC for what you already have via OEM Agreement. If Yamaha wants to release a leading edge 2s engine they have the capability to do so.... they don't want too unless changing direction. Yamaha could kick butt with a 3 cylinder 2s the market place is begging for it but I don't think that is the Yamaha direction. If Yamaha introduces anything it will be a 4s Apex replacement in the 150-160hp zone and Vector is gone. Yamaha won't orphan the Viper and Sidewinder and piss off the faithful they will stay the course via OEM Agreement. What is interesting is the pure Yamaha future products and direction.
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While Yamaha does have an agreement with Cat they have no control or identity. Yamaha has always had the capability to release a two stroke, they do not need Cat or an agreement with them or Textron to do that! If Yamaha wants to be a sled builder they need to build sleds. Buying Cat from Textron would give them a place to build and a team of chassis designers with control over both, They already have the engines all they need is an identity. Surprisingly you speak of Cat 7,000, 9,000, ThunderCat knockoffs and Yamaha faithful in the same sentence followed by pure Yamaha future products. If Yamaha remains in an agreement with Cat I see no pure Yamaha sled in the future, only knock off Cats products with Yamaha stickers at best. But when two companys compete against each other with the same product one is doomed to be swallowed by the other unless they diversify the lines with something more then plastic and stickers. hence the Cats are two strokes the Yamahas are four strokes and Yamaha owns them both.

If we want to speculate as to what motor Yamaha is working on I think it is a jackshaft driven supercharged NA Yamaha turbo engine making 160ish hp. The Apex engine is the one I would want the jackshaft supercharger on but it would make as much hp as the 9,000 and that is not going to happen sadly. I would love a new Yamaha chassis Apex but I don't think Yamaha is a Sled manufacture anymore and hasn't been since the Nytro!
 
Yamaha will never make their own sleds again IMO. They sold approx 5000 sleds last year worldwide. Peanuts for a company that large. The OEM agreement is perfect for them. They sell more engines which they are already producing anyways.

Its tough in the powersports industry, prices have gotten crazy for the sport, and there's less places to ride every year it seems.

Not a direct comparison, but I was reading that SeaRay boats is for sale. They used to sell over 100,000 boats a year in the early 90s. Many people could afford a boat back in those days. 20 grand for a bowrider or runabout. Fast forward to now, a 20 foot bowrider from Searay is like 100 grand. Last year Searay sold less than 5000 boats worldwide.
 
Sasquatch said:
While Yamaha does have an agreement with Cat they have no control or identity. Yamaha has always had the capability to release a two stroke, they do not need Cat or an agreement with them or Textron to do that! If Yamaha wants to be a sled builder they need to build sleds. Buying Cat from Textron would give them a place to build and a team of chassis designers with control over both, They already have the engines all they need is an identity. Surprisingly you speak of Cat 7,000, 9,000, ThunderCat knockoffs and Yamaha faithful in the same sentence followed by pure Yamaha future products. If Yamaha remains in an agreement with Cat I see no pure Yamaha sled in the future, only knock off Cats products with Yamaha stickers at best. But when two companys compete against each other with the same product one is doomed to be swallowed by the other unless they diversify the lines with something more then plastic and stickers. hence the Cats are two strokes the Yamahas are four strokes and Yamaha owns them both.

If we want to speculate as to what motor Yamaha is working on I think it is a jackshaft driven supercharged NA Yamaha turbo engine making 160ish hp. The Apex engine is the one I would want the jackshaft supercharger on but it would make as much hp as the 9,000 and that is not going to happen sadly. I would love a new Yamaha chassis Apex but I don't think Yamaha is a Sled manufacture anymore and hasn't been since the Nytro!
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Yamaha won't buy AC unless they can get it dirt cheap even then very risky purchase so best to go OEM Agreement pay as you go and share the risk. Sooner or later AC has to come out with a new platform least amount of risk is to share costs with their OEM partner just like the Snow Scoot /200 neither company would have done that alone costs too much. If Yamaha/AC wants to partner chassis and engine they could come up with a kick #*$&@ 4s sled. Who knows what Yamaha has submitted to AC for bid and tooling costs? Yamaha knows what it would cost to build their way,their country but could be very happy with AC USA costs on a given new platform. When OEM partners are close they are wide open with each other and try to help each other prosper. Textron will want to take the OEM Agreement to the next level, stay the same or kill it. I'm hoping for Textron to step up to the plate and hit a home run with the a new OEM Agreement because Yamaha will never spend the money to buy the snowmobile division from them...just no ROI to do so in a shrinking snowless winter market.
 
whitedust1 said:
Yamaha won't buy AC unless they can get it dirt cheap even then very risky purchase so best to go OEM Agreement pay as you go and share the risk. Sooner or later AC has to come out with a new platform least amount of risk is to share costs with their OEM partner just like the Snow Scoot /200 neither company would have done that alone costs too much. If Yamaha/AC wants to partner chassis and engine they could come up with a kick #*$&@ 4s sled. Who knows what Yamaha has submitted to AC for bid and tooling costs? Yamaha knows what it would cost to build their way,their country but could be very happy with AC USA costs on a given new platform. When OEM partners are close they are wide open with each other and try to help each other prosper. Textron will want to take the OEM Agreement to the next level, stay the same or kill it. I'm hoping for Textron to step up to the plate and hit a home run with the a new OEM Agreement because Yamaha will never spend the money to buy the snowmobile division from them...just no ROI to do so in a shrinking snowless winter market.
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Then I'm right Yamaha is no longer a sled builder and there are only three! Thats the whole point do they want to build sleds or sell the same sleds as cat and die from internal competition! I mean why buy Yamaha when the same sled is sold by Cat! Hard to maintain an identity when you don't build a sled! So many times has this played out elsewhere!
 
Sasquatch said:
Then I'm right Yamaha is no longer a sled builder and there are only three! Thats the whole point do they want to build sleds or sell the same sleds as cat and die from internal competition! I mean why buy Yamaha when the same sled is sold by Cat! Hard to maintain an identity when you don't build a sled! So many times has this played out elsewhere!
Click to expand...
If you prefer the Cat buy it if you prefer the Yamaha buy that...not much different than GMC, Chevy and Buick buy what you like best or buy another brand. Who cares who owns the mfg location? If Yamaha bought AC you would have the same products that you have now and Textron would be history but never in the game anyway til now. Right now Yamaha does not mfg from their mfg location unless they still produce the Phazer and Vector in Japan next year. This is news to you? The Viper and Sidewinder are good sleds and selling put eps on them and I would buy one. Apex was a great sled but not selling so mfg is over and something new will replace it and could be designed by Yamaha engineers then go to bid by AC to build just like the Scoot/200. Give Yamaha a chance it's not over until it's over.
 
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